Inspection question.

Jraef

Moderator
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Disagree. With that logic every installation that has a portion replaced or repaired must have the entire installation brought up to current codes.
So if a main breaker is changed the entire installation must be brought up to codes? Where is the line in the sand drawn?
Around here, it is "like for like". If I replace a main breaker with the proper replacement for it, that's fine. If I "upgrade" to something new and different, that triggers the fact that the rest of the house must be brought up to current code. Happened to me on my own house when I added a room addition and even though I did not change the panel, I had to add two new breakers to it. Luckily for me it was long enough ago that the AFCI requirements were not in place yet. I already had changed the existing bathroom and kitchen receptacles to GFCI, but I did have to go through and add hard-wired smoke detectors, even though I already had battery powered ones. That was a surprise. He also made me separate the existing disposal and dishwasher circuits to be an MWBC, so I had to use an handle-tied breaker pair. None of that was in the original permit.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Around here, it is "like for like". If I replace a main breaker with the proper replacement for it, that's fine. If I "upgrade" to something new and different, that triggers the fact that the rest of the house must be brought up to current code. Happened to me on my own house when I added a room addition and even though I did not change the panel, I had to add two new breakers to it. Luckily for me it was long enough ago that the AFCI requirements were not in place yet. I already had changed the existing bathroom and kitchen receptacles to GFCI, but I did have to go through and add hard-wired smoke detectors, even though I already had battery powered ones. That was a surprise. He also made me separate the existing disposal and dishwasher circuits to be an MWBC, so I had to use an handle-tied breaker pair. None of that was in the original permit.
That silliness is what I’m talking about.

Requiring more than the original permit breeds un-inspected work because of inspector stupidity, or even worse, someone leaving an unsafe panel that can’t be replaced because of the added expense of changing everything in the house to meet current codes.

You tell me your going to charge me $1500 for a panel change, then add on another $1500-2000 to rewire and bring the whole house up to current codes, I’ll get a handyman that won’t get it inspected and will be a lot cheaper.
Sure, someone here on the forum will say it’s unsafe, but will it really be any more unsafe than what I started with?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Figured that much. Just not inclined to take advice from someone who has been to court "many times".
sadly , you could learn a lot from a dummy XP
1634166441359.png
but , you must find your own way, i understand

but what are you going to do when the politicians are in charge of your contract, paycheck?

until you walk in such shoes, you're no more than a naïve noob.....

best of luck

~RJ~
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
What, 5 yoked gfi's to get paid. What's the issue again?
If the kitchen is chained (from wherever), only the 1st needs to be gfi'd and accessible, otherwise plop in a gfi ocpd.

The inspector person themself is NOT the AHJ. If you have legit gripe and want to challenge the inspection, contact the AHJ.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
So what is "reasonably affected" by replacing a 15A fuse with a 15A breaker? And if you choose to arbitrarily upgrade some parts of the home's system and not others, how do you decide (and legally defend) those arbitrary decisions?
and in fact that 14ga wire is very often protected by 30 amp fuse . . .
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
What, 5 yoked gfi's to get paid. What's the issue again?
If the kitchen is chained (from wherever), only the 1st needs to be gfi'd and accessible, otherwise plop in a gfi ocpd.

The inspector person themself is NOT the AHJ. If you have legit gripe and want to challenge the inspection, contact the AHJ.
I would expect house of that vintage to have receptacles fed from overhead lite
 

garbo

Senior Member
Around here a panel for a permit change is only for that. If the inspector has the power to require more than what is on the permit then it's the homeowners problem to pay for what he required.
Sorry to hear about the problem. Here in Pa we do not have state electrical license so some dukes of hazzard town inspectors have their own personel codes. I argued with one when I told him that I went to the town and read the maybe 20 page adements to the NEC and had 11 pages of plans stamped by an electrical engineer and even had a sit down with local inspector & engineer. He tried failing me after my inspector passed it. Never did the extra several days of work that were in his hidden code. One failed me because they had a cover off of a jelly jar luminare to clean it. He refused to wait a mintue for me to have the janitor reinstall it. The vast majority of inspectors & AHJ'S were great and would rather answer my questions rather then fail you.
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
In our area the city ordinance is clear. I like it when it's clear and fair for all.
 

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Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
Maybe the OP should get involved and work on changing the wording of there local ordinance. Start with the AHJ them electrical board and so on. It is a long process however worth it. Get some backing from local electrical associations and move on it.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Disagree. With that logic every installation that has a portion replaced or repaired must have the entire installation brought up to current codes.
So if a main breaker is changed the entire installation must be brought up to codes? Where is the line in the sand drawn?
Exactly. 2017 includes arc fault for those kitchen outlets. What if the spacing in the "existing kitchen" was off, add outlets? Around here a service or panel swap would include GES update. No arc fault breakers unless you lengthen or shorten your circuits by 6 feet.
 

Rick 0920

Member
Location
Jacksonville, FL
Occupation
Electrical Instructor
You applied for a permit, filled out the paperwork and told the permitting office what equipment you were going to change. And they agreed to the work (or gave you permission to complete the work you told them) you were going to do, and didn’t add any stipulations to the permit.
yet then when you get your required inspections the inspector adds on additional requirements not in the original agreement?
It almost is like breach of contract…


Crap like this is why so many people do or attempt to do un-permitted work, and I really can’t blame them.
Sometimes they really make it difficult for those trying to do the right thing!
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
No, panel in exact same spot. Also, they are not asking for just GFCI protection on existing outlets, but wanting me to add outlets in kitchen/bath as per 2017 code for kitchens.
p51: There has got to be more to this story. . Is the house all 1950's original? If so that's nuts, every panel change would be a house rewire.
p51 should in no way be liable for unforeseen work the inspector is requiring.

In my state there is a 'grandfather' law that says something to the effect of
wiring installation in existing buildings in the state that complied with the minimum electrical code in effect at the time of installation shall not be considered in violation of the current minimum Electrical Specialty Code standards, unless the use or occupancy of the building is changed

I have done similar panel changes on 1950's homes .
It goes like this I pull the panel cover doing the estimate see only old cloth 2-wire romex (no egc)
and if I get to look around and spot grounded outlets everywhere, and no GFCI's.
I Plug in a plug tester and you guessed it, no ground.

Now in my case since someone in the past replaced a non-grounding outlet with a grounding outlet, that's something that is not grandfathered.
I'll point it out, discuss options with the customer, I tell them
when my inspector sees that he will write up a violation [406.4(D) ] to them, not me.

The inspector is satisfied with stopping at GFCI breakers, despite that to the letter of the code they would not fix it in its entirety as there is 250.114(3) and the whole tamper-proof thing.
Cheers
 
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