Inspector-bottom line

[tpwd]

I don?t want to shock you but the NEC is not the Holy Grail. No it is just one of NFPA?s hundreds of reference guides that inspectors and engineers use to insure that electrical work is installed in a safe manner.

NEC 90.4 states that the ?authority having jurisdiction [AHJ] for enforcement? of the code has the responsibility for making interpretations. This is generally the ?inspector?. The NEC has some areas that are black and white but most of it is gray and needs interpreting.
NEC 100 states that the AHJ is the individual responsible for approving the installation.

There are three kinds of jobs that electricians work on. (1) Projects that require inspections by governmental bodies, then the inspector is the AHJ. (2) Projects that do not require city/state types of inspections but are designed by A/Es. Then the architect and/or engineer is the AHJ. (3) Projects that are done for friends or outside jurisdictions and are not designed by A/Es. Then the electrician is the AHJ. This may seem like the best kind of project but it hold the most liability for the electrician. You are 100% responsible for the project. While the other two types of projects share the responsibly with the electrician; this is better for the contractor if you go to court. The inspector is classified as an expert witness and has no vested interest in the project. His interpretation of the rules will not be altered by the lawyers, as will the electrician?s interpretations.

So when people in the forums ask questions and receive answers, be aware that just because an interpretation of a rule is allowed one place is no guarantee that is will be interpreted that way somewhere else. So going crying to an engineer because an inspector turns you down will not change any code enforcement issues. You are lucky if five inspectors in the same city interprets the rules the same. [They don?t have to]

 

[iwire]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

Tpwd,

I don?t want to shock you but What you describe is not how it is done in all States.

By Tpwd

(1) Projects that require inspections by governmental bodies, then the inspector is the AHJ. (2) Projects that do not require city/state types of inspections but are designed by A/Es. Then the architect and/or engineer is the AHJ. (3) Projects that are done for friends or outside jurisdictions and are not designed by A/Es. Then the electrician is the AHJ.

In MA the AHJ is never the EC.

By Tpwd

So when people in the forums ask questions and receive answers, be aware that just because an interpretation of a rule is allowed one place is no guarantee that is will be interpreted that way somewhere else.

I would say the same to you, not all places enforce the code as you describe.

By Tpwd

So going crying to an engineer because an inspector turns you down will not change any code enforcement issues.

Why would I go to an engineer, they have Nothing to do with code enforcement.

If I had a problem with an inspector then I could go to the AHJ.

But I have never wanted to do this as we have inspectors that follow the amended NEC and stay out of contract and specification issues.

[ April 13, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

To begin with, in most cases, when most of our forum members reply to a code question they usually back their opinions with a code reference. I'm not sure how things work in other states but here in NJ there is a remedy for filing a grievance. If you think an inspector is incorrect in citing you for a violation, you can make an appeal to the chief inspector at the Dept of Community Affairs Licensing Board without mentioning the inspector's name or the town he inspects in ( that way you are not giving him/her a "wire brushing").

You must make a formal proposal and your reason(s) for making the proposal (citing code section and any other code references). After getting a written opinion from that person, if it's in your favor, you can then present it to the AHJ and see if he/she will reverse their decision on the violation. If they are steadfast in their opinion you can then file a formal complaint with the DCA in which case ( unfortunately) you can probably never do work in that municipality again ( that's condsidered a "wire brushing"). That (unfortunately) is the sad part of this situation.

There seems to be a lot of unfortunate situations in our business. Maybe we should look into opening up a convenience store instead of doing electrical work !!!

 

[dereckbc]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

TPWD, most of us know there are local differences. This is a NEC forum, and the answers are based on NEC and not local code.

 

[peter d]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

it is just one of NFPA?s hundreds of reference guides that inspectors and engineers use to insure that electrical work is installed in a safe manner.

That may be true. But most electricians I know only have a copy of the NEC in their trucks. That is all we need.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

NEC 90.4 states that the ?authority having jurisdiction [AHJ] for enforcement? of the code has the responsibility for making interpretations. This is generally the ?inspector?. The NEC has some areas that are black and white but most of it is gray and needs interpreting.
NEC 100 states that the AHJ is the individual responsible for approving the installation

90.4 does give inspector the right permit alternative methods.

But 90.5 says what he can change!!!

ever notice why these two articals are next to each other?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

tpwd,

I don?t want to shock you but the NEC is not the Holy Grail. No it is just one of NFPA?s hundreds of reference guides that inspectors and engineers use to insure that electrical work is installed in a safe manner.

In my area very few, if any, of these other NFPA documents are adopted by the local governmental units. If they have not been adopted, they cannot not be enforced by an inspector working for the AHJ. They can be part of the design specs and enforced by the owner or his representative, by not by the inspector employed by the local governmental unit

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

I find it odd that some people feel that Inspectors and Electricians are in a different business. The AHJ's number one job is really 90.1. That just happens to be the electricians number one job. I have never looked at the inspector as the enemy as some contractors do. The way I look at it, I get the expertise of a qualified electrican and a second opinion for the low cost of a permit. Inspectors that run around with power trips and looking to stick it to electricans really hurt our industry. The same goes for electricians trying to pull fast ones and constantly try to get away with crap work. We are all one team with one goal.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

Bryan, I was going to say something like that, but you said it better than I could have.

I have never seen the contractors around here that do a decent job have any trouble with inspectors.

I was talking to a fellow electrician the other day, and he echoed my own thoughts.
He said that he does the kind of work that will build and maintain his good reputation, and would do so with or without inspection.

Ed

 

[iwire]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

Bryan, something we can agree on, all but one inspectors that I have dealt with have been fair and we both looked at the job with the same goal in mind, a safe installation.

If they have a problem with the work they would tell me fix and they will check it next time, they know my word is good, if I say I will do it, it will get done, we treat it each other with respect.

Bob

 

[gwz2]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

Trust between the installer and the inspector is nice to have.

19 years ago, during my first year as an inspector,
the owner of a small shop contractor met me at the site late in the afternoon, for a Service upgrade from 60A to 100A.

The grounding was not complete. The lady of the house was present. The owner told me he would have some there the next morning to correct, so I released the installation for the Poco meter re-installation.

About a month later the lady called and said the contractor never came back. It took him a few more days after I called him.

Same contractor, about six months later requested a Rough on home. Again late in the afternoon, the electricians were just finishing-up, just another hour or so. Point-out three items needing attention, and gave a Rough green ticket.

When called for a Final, there was not a switched outlet for lighting in the living room. Called the owner, His reply " I've got a green ticket for the rough".

He hurt many of the other contractors by that statement.
Had a couple infractions by other contractors. Few ever got an early approval after that, and this particular contractor, never.

Seemed like the worst offenders were the large contractors, where I suppose the electrian on the site was told daily where to go to work.

Now an inspector in a different city. Just recently, a temporary 480V 3? service was installed in a factory building ( one of many) being prepared for sale and wanted the boilers working and some lighting.
The Service Equipment was installed a basement prone to flooding. A 480V /120/240 transformer was set just a few inches above the basement floor level. The transformer was not grounded per 250.30. It was corrected and OK'd the Service. Later when driving by saw that the overhead Service was connected the day before. Stopped in to make field insp[ection and found that the transformer had been moved to the 1st floor with-out a re-inspection.

Respect for that contractor has went way down.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

GW,

A green (passed) inspection sticker protects both the property owner and the electrical contractor. In the event of an electrical fire or some other electrical hazard, that green sticker certifies that a qualified third party has inspected the electrical work and attests that it was done satisfactorily. However, in your case putting a green sticker on an incomplete job based on a contractor's word that he/she will make the necessary corrections is taking on a big liability as you came to find out.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but rather than put a red sticker on the job and fail the contractor outright, if I were the inspector and wanted to be a nice guy, I would have asked him to make the correction within a given amount of time and make another appointment for inspection. If the correction was properly made at that point - green sticker; if not - red sticker. That way there's no hard feelings.

 

[sparkmantoo]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

i think in the state of va that 90.4 is on of the many reason why we are still in the 1996 code. to much authority is given to the inspector to change things as they see fit. in one locallity they could say this, in another they could say that. it gets really confusing sometime to try to figure out what they will or will not want. in our area there is a code enforcement officer and the inspectors are this persons deputys. :roll:

 

[vanwalker]

Re: Inspector-bottom line

AHJ nice letters but as i see it,for me to use these letters there is alot of things that must happen and even then not sure i would use it without checking it again . with so-called power comes REAL responsibility and exposure. GEO