inspector dilema polish polish shine shine

[GUNNING]

I have a problem. An AC installer wants me to hook up AC units (heat pumps and condenser with heat strips) for a utility and city sponsored rebate program. The owners get a sizable rebate to install new HVAC units for disadvantage housing. Read all the politics you want into this program, but the reality is the local utility wont have to build a new power plant if they can get enough people on board.
The units are nice and efficient.
THE PROBLEM
The houses are so old and decrepit the electric has Edison's personal signature on the panel boxes. These things are ancient and in closets, bathrooms, cupboards, with double tapped mains, meters, and breakers. AFCI's? they dont make them for fused panels. Cable connectors? Isn't that what the KO is for to jam the Romex through? Grounding???? not in these houses.
How do I get the inspector to do his job when the equipment is not up to the inspection. How do I get the inspector to overlook the panel in the cupboard?
Yes I know, you can't.
Do I tell the A/C guy it can't be done because a 60 amp service isn't big enough for a 30 amp load and the washer/dryer fridge freezer water heater stove and the lights? I have tried the, "it needs a new service" and he has already installed the unit. The Inspector asks for and gets Load calculations. Its ALMOST not enough (93 amps on a 100 amp service). Its embarrassing to ask the inspector to look at this stuff. I polish and shine it but it still looks like a polished turd. Roach bits and all.
Who gets the bad news and how do I phrase it. I should be good enough to make these panels shine. I can make them ALMOST legal, but not completely. The money just isn't there to make them complete.
I decided no more permits till I get the last one done. I have 2 outstanding. It is taking 2 weeks of work to get the inspections done plus parts and re inspection fees. I'm not blaming the inspector he is just doing his job. I kind of admire him for the fancy foot work.

How do I make it easier on everyone to get this done more methodically. I have another one with the same parameters different problem on my desk, adding kitchenettes in motel rooms. Its going to be the same crud different day for more money. It took an hour for them to tell me there was a full set of prints for the remodel. Service isn't big enough, they don't understand why they need fire walls and a fire alarm system for 100 unit motel owned by an NGO. The Plumber, no problem in and out in 10 minutes. Me? half a day on details like you need a 1200 amp service upgrade like it says in the prints you didn't want to give me.
Polish Polish polish. Shine shine shine

Suggestions?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the service can't handle the load you have no choice but to upgrade. I don't see the issue. Some inspectors will allow you to feed from a panel that was grandfathered in and doesn't have the clearance while others will make you change the panel.

 

[augie47]

Locally, as far as the HVAC situation, most of the problems you describe are handled by building what is locally referenced as a "split meter". New service and outside panel with breakers feeding the new ac and the old inside panel. Local AHJ's work with the E/Cs on these normally requiring only a 4 wire feed to the interior panel (and that is sometimes waived depending on conditions).

 

[Sierrasparky]

I guess I am confused. Is this several single family homes or a apartment condo type unit. If this is an individual dwelling I cannot see how you can do this without a new service to each the homes and a sub breaker to the old panel and then a breaker for the new a/c.

 

[iwire]

I know I am confused.

The idea is to reduce load on the local power plant by adding loads to single family homes?

 

[Little Bill]

I know I am confused.

The idea is to reduce load on the local power plant by adding loads to single family homes?

I think the idea is to install more efficient units, there by, reducing the demand. But if a home doesn't have air conditioning or electric heat and you add one that is increasing the load/demand.

 

[iwire]

I think the idea is to install more efficient units, there by, reducing the demand.

Which would mean the service is already adequate. (Which was really my point)

 

[Little Bill]

Which would mean the service is already adequate. (Which was really my point)

Don't mess with my brain tonight, it hurts!:grin:

 

[GUNNING]

hrumph vent vent vent

hrumph vent vent vent

They put in central A/C and take out a couple of window units on the lighting circuits 3,4 sometimes more. Had a little old blind lady sitting on her couch trying to tell me the one in the living room wasn't paid for yet and not to take that one away. I told her the A/C guy is in charge of that and he should be leaving them all there. (I hope)
The load was never calculated because it was on the lighting/convenience circuits. Now we have a new install reducing the load overall yet the service isn't calculated with the new electric appliances installed over the last 50 years and or a new HVAC. It is a conundrum. You have to justify something that has been in place for 50 years.
The new meter panel combo outside re feeding the inside unit and panel is an option but not with the budget available.
I was commenting on two separate jobs. The second job I was venting about was a remodel of a hotel. People call me when they cant get anyone else to figure out how to bail them out. 1200 amp service upgrade. I just figured out the MDU is missing, the contractor they fired tore it out, they don't know enough about this to know how far over there heads they are. hrumph ... vent vent vent firewalls ... grumble ... alarm system ... grumble... new service ... hrumph

 

[renosteinke]

WHat can this thread possibly have to do with the old house I just bought? Well, they both bring to light the 'snowball effect.'

The 'snowball effect' is what you have when a little detail leads to major changes. As in, putting in that new 3-prong receptacle leads to, ultimately, a complete gut, re-wire, and service changs. Along the way, all those wonderfull DIY "improvements" get ripped out and done correctly.

Even today, the cost of installing central air is greater than the cost of several 'window shakers.' The difference is that the EC will check for an adequate service, while the customer just sets his in the window and plugs it in. If the customer needs 220 for his big window shaker .... well, that's just another splice added to the range circuit.

Why, by golly, "they" are giving me free air conditioning with their rebates! Sure they are - but that will be the most expensive 'free' you ever saw. Sure, plenty of other inadequacies will be corrected in the process- but these folks would have 'done it right' long ago had they any resources in the first place.

So, what's a contractor to do? I, for one, cannot in good conscience simply hook up the new unit to the old, cobbled-together DIY arrangements. Even if I were to ignore the matter of load calculations, adding a separate panel next to the old fuse box usually is more work than just ripping out the old service and redoing the whole mess. The challenge lies in doing this in a manner that wins the customers' confidence.

I suggest that you keep ALL the details, obstacles, and complications to yourself. Just give them the final price and tell them that's what the job will cost. Then do your job. Don't bother them by discussing replacing the panel, cleaning up illegal work, etc - just do it. When you're done, show them the clean new instal and let them smile as they write the check.

Ditto for your dealings with the A/C guy. Look at the nameplate, look at the installation, and tell him when you'll be done. If that means three days, then it will be three days. He doesn't need to hear excuses about how you first need to do this or that. Nor are you interested in getting into a discussion of 'why don't you just do this...'. If you want, hang your disco and run a cord to it so he can finish his part. Then LOSE THE CORD while you do the rest of your job. The longer that cords is there, the more requests there will be that you just leave it and go.

 

[satcom]

What I get from this thread is the AC guy pressure sold some elderly lady under the guise of an energy program offered for low income housing, sounds like the lady has a ligit consumer complaint.

 

[GUNNING]

hmm .. had not thought of it that way. You might be right.

 

[muskrat]

Ran into similar situation where POCO gave away FREE timers for water heaters for "time-of-use" customers. Problem was little old ladies want to cook and clean during the day but mainly wonder why they have to rewire the #12's to their water heater.
You're between a (Ba)rack and a hard place.