Inspector required fan boxes

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peter d

peter d

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New England
I was working in a jurisdiction last week where inspectors are requiring fan rated ceiling boxes to be installed in all places that a fan is likely to be installed (bedrooms, kitchens etc) regardless if a fan is installed or not at the completion of the job.

Now, get the eggs ready. I don't really have a problem with this. Yes, the inspectors are overstepping their bounds but with ceiling fans being extremely common these days, I think it makes sense.

This is a huge departure from my usual position because intensely dislike decisions made for "what if" situations, and inspectors making up rules. But, I can see the rationale in this particular situation.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

The rule that I have to work by is "Inspect not Expect".

But yet I couldn't agree any more with the "intent".

Jim
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

If it is as important as the building department and the city seem to believe it is I would think the best thing to do would be to put it into law.

So, why haven't they done that?

If they think there is a safty issue, giving people greif about things that are actually correct is no solution.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

It is the code in Wisconsin.
"Comm 16.325. This is a department rule in addition to the requirements of NEC 314.27(A):
In a dwelling unit, a ceiling outlet box installed for use as a lighting fixture outlet in a habitable room or kitchen and located where a ceiling fan could be installed shall be a type listed for ceiling fan support."
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

In 2002 Summit County, Ohio outlawed direct burial underground services. Under Ohio Revised Code their authority to enact new local legislation was takes wasy in 1973 or so. However, they made an interpretation that soil conditions and installation conditions were unsuitable for direct buried cables.

It just simply costs too much to remove rocks from the trench and backfill and then level the bottom of the trench. I would rather throw in a conduit, preferably oversized to lower labor cost, and be done with it. Also, PVC conduit protects against the Tree Root Circuit Breaker Method.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Peter,

Is there a local code that they may be citing? If not, how do they have the authority to force the issue beyond a strong recommendation? If the local codes do not require it, I can't see how you are bound by the law to head the inspector's request.

Bob
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Originally posted by bthielen:
Peter,

Is there a local code that they may be citing? If not, how do they have the authority to force the issue beyond a strong recommendation? If the local codes do not require it, I can't see how you are bound by the law to head the inspector's request.

Bob
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No local code that I am aware of, but I will double check. I think the inspectors are going by the mindset that a fan WILL be installed more often than not, but again, that does not justify their requirement.

To me, this is something of a gray area. One can never be sure if a fan will be used or not. I am happy to go ahead and put in the fan boxes now, because it is one less headache later on.

Granted, there are plenty of so called electricians who will just go ahead and hang a fan from a regular box, but I am not one of them.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

To me, this is something of a gray area.
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There's nothing grey about it. They're either asking or demanding something with no legal provision to do so.

I think the jurisdiction is failing in their obligation to the public trust if they allow what they believe to be a safety issue to go unabated.

Pushing people around outside of the law isn't abating it.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Pete here is the 2002 version I do not have the 2005 handy.

314.27(D) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets. Where a box is used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan, the box shall be listed for the application and for the weight of the fan to be supported. The installation shall comply with 422.18.
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I have to agree with Sam, I do not see any gray area in there.

"Where a box is used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan,"

"Is used as" is not at all the same as may be used as".

If they make you install the fan box should they make you install extra conductors from the fan box to the switch box? :D
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Good catch Bob. Better "order" us to install at least 3 conductors to accomodate the "phantom" fan. :D
 
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. There is no grey area whatsoever in the NEC.

The grey area is whether or not a fan will be installed. How is the inspector to know what will be installed? Things change during the course of a job.

No, they aren't going so far as to require a 2nd switched leg up to the box. Just the box itself.

Bob, you probably know what jurisdiction I am talking about. ;)
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Hi Pete

Originally posted by peter d:
The grey area is whether or not a fan will be installed. How is the inspector to know what will be installed? Things change during the course of a job.
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I don't know, that is fairly clear.

Is a fan there or not?

I know one when I see one. :D

Here is how I look at it, if the plans or the homeowner do not indicate a fan then there is no fan to require a "fan box" for.

If after the rough or finish inspections I am informed there will be a fan there I would make sure the box is not the "sole support"

I have a paddle fan now above my head in my 1925 house. You can bet there is no fan box there, I have screws that support the fan to the wood structure, the box(?} is not doing any supporting.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

To be truthful, I don't know why I am coming down on the side of the inspectors here, because they are wrong. This is out of character for me. It seems like a good idea but they should ammend the code if they think it's so great.

In this jurisdiction I am presently working in, people are used to doing what the inspector tells them without question, because politics rule the game. It seems I am adopting that mindset, and I need to snap out of it. :roll: I don't like it a bit, but people would rather do what they're told than think a little.

OK, rant over.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Originally posted by physis:
Good catch Bob. Better "order" us to install at least 3 conductors to accomodate the "phantom" fan. :D
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Oh come on. You know that light fixtures are not likely to be touched and even less likely to become energized. They're out of reach. With that in mind, tape the white wire red and use the ground as the neutral.

* Note the preceeding is something that I witnessed once
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Most everyone here will just spend the extra $50 to put in the fan boxes, because that $50 costs less than the time wasted to fight the inspector
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Peter,

I'll bet the opossite is true.

Three metaphorical bloody noses dealt to the jurisdiction would likely save everyone in the industry many, many 50 dollars'es.

You people are allowing yourselves to be put upon as an alternate method for solving the jurisdiction's percieved problem.

Edit again: If I don't start the editer twice it drops whatever was last edited in. This post hasn't been making a lot of sense, that's why. I think it's a little better now.

[ April 20, 2005, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

I saw what my last post said and didn't know what I was talking about. So I fixed it again .
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

Was looking at one just yesterday.The differance between a steel octygon and the fan rated one is almost nothing.They simply drilled and tapped the box where there would have been a knockout.How do they justify charging more than an extra 25 cents ?.The reason i use the fan rated boxes is to make life easy when the customer shows up with a fan or heavy luminaire.Just isnt worth the time required to change them and patch ceiling.
Bob, while you did the right thing many will not.As to being forced to do this,that is wrong.Simply stand up to the inspector and tell him NO.If they want it then write a code requiring it.When i was doing residential we used the plastic L shaped ones,they do not support anything but themself and the wire.They were simply a fast way out.
 
Re: Inspector required fan boxes

I think in another thread someone made a statement to the effect that if something is repeated enough it soon becomes believed to be a standard or rule. Although the cost of fighting the inspector may justify satisfying his/her desire, if it isn't fought, when is the inspector held accountable? While most would probably agree that the inspector's request is not necessarily a bad thing, it is equally important to realize this inspector is being given more authority that should be allowed. Could mean more trouble later on.

Bob
 
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