Inspectors (a.h.j)

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kzawada1

Member
when you are doing an installation and you have done all your work exactly as the print says and most important to the nec standards.My question is if the inspector or the ahj wants ,can he super-seed the code and make you go above code standards to complete the work,(for an example,lets say you run your emt you pull a black and a white and you leave out the ground to save some money,because the ground is not required to be pulled in e.m.t.The inspector or a.h.j can make you add the ground if he wishes which would going above the minumun code standards. I have a guy at the jobsite that doesnt believe the ahj can go above the minumum code standard,thanks for the help K zawada
 
Only if the change has been formally adopted. i.e., read and accepted in a public meeting. It should also be written down.
 
No, he's full of hot air. Tell him you'll be glad to pull the EGC if he pays for time and materials. Be sure to name a price that you'd actually be happy to do it for.

What you should really do is ask for (in writing) the code reference that he insists your installation is not in compliance with. Then do what I said above.


Added: When you say "you leave out the ground . . . because the ground is not required", do you mean it was specified somewhere and you decided to make a change?
 
Last edited:
"Can" the AHJ do this? Yes. Are there cases in which an AHJ has done such a thing? Yes. Is it legal for an AHJ to do this? No. Can they get away with it anyway? Yes. Can they make it inconvenient for you to contest their decisions, so that you decide it is not worth the time or money it would cost you to get the ruling overturned by the person's supervisor? Yes. Have I personally encountered an AHJ who has attempted to impose his or her own rules above and beyond the legally adopted requirements? I have not, and I do not envy those who have.

Keep in mind that local codes can be more restrictive than the NEC, in which case the AHJ absolutely does have authority to enforce the more strict requirements. I vaguely recall, for example, indeed using your example, that the City of Chicago has a local rule that requires the installation of an EGC, even if you are using EMT as the raceway.
 
Also keep in mind that some states (Including Utah) require that inspectors enforce engineering specs as well as code. So even if it is code compliant to use EMT as an equipment grounding conductor, if the engineers specifications require a copper EGC pulled in a EMT then the inspector is required to enforce that spec.

Chris
 
a.h.j question again

a.h.j question again

my mine thing i was looking for in the last post about a.h.j,Can they make you do any installation beyond the minumum standards the code says?
 
An AHJ cannot impose his will on a contractor. He is bound by the written law (code becomes law when it is adopted by the jurisdiction).
Can he make an installer install more than is written by the code? Yes, if the installer is not aware of the codes applicable to the installation.

The real fine line comes when the installer is aware of the codes, and the AHJ is trying to impose what is not written. Then it becomes a "game" and it is always interesting to see who wins. :wink:



Oh, you want the short answer??? NO
 
kzawada1 said:
my mine thing i was looking for in the last post about a.h.j,Can they make you do any installation beyond the minumum standards the code says?
Click to expand...

when you say "the code", you must understand that as far as the ahj is concerned, "the code" = "the law". The law is whatever codes, addendums, changes, additions, deletions, and exceptions that that particular jurisdiction has adopted. That can be much different from simply enforcing the NEC code.
 
Oklahoma City Supplement to the NEC
250.118 All raceways or cable assemblies shall include a green or bare equipment grounding conductor. Said conductor shall be bonded to all non current carrying metal parts of the electrical system.
Click to expand...
If an AHJ has a written supplement that I can get a copy of, then I have no problem with them superseding the code. But if it's, "Because I said so" then I have a real problem.
 
Remember that the NEC is as binding on the inspector as it is the electrician. The phrase "shall be permitted" is an example.
 
LarryFine said:
Remember that the NEC is as binding on the inspector as it is the electrician. The phrase "shall be permitted" is an example.
Click to expand...

Only if the NEC has formally and legally been adopted. It's not mandatory it be so.
 
IMO if an inspector writes a correction, they must reference the code violation (NEC or local) in writing. My question is what code reference did this inspector use?

I can think of a few good reasons why an inspector might require an EGC in EMT. The conduit may have been covered prior to inspection and the inspector could not verify a complete low impedance ground path. The circuits could be more than 250v to ground (NEC 250.94) and require additional bonding, if the fittings and boxes are not listed for use. Patient care areas also require a redundant EGC. It might just be a local rule.

I find it hard to believe an AHJ just comes on to a job and tells someone to change something without backing it up. I would be curious if this happens a lot. Maybe this would make a good pole question???
 
mistermudd said:
I can think of a few good reasons why an inspector might require an EGC in EMT. The conduit may have been covered prior to inspection and the inspector could not verify a complete low impedance ground path.
Click to expand...

If they did not inspect it they should not approve it.

The circuits could be more than 250v to ground (NEC 250.94) and require additional bonding, if the fittings and boxes are not listed for use.
Click to expand...

250.94 never requires the installation of an EGC.
 
charlie b said:
"Can" the AHJ do this? Yes. Are there cases in which an AHJ has done such a thing? Yes. Is it legal for an AHJ to do this? No. Can they get away with it anyway? Yes. Can they make it inconvenient for you to contest their decisions, so that you decide it is not worth the time or money it would cost you to get the ruling overturned by the person's supervisor? Yes. Have I personally encountered an AHJ who has attempted to impose his or her own rules above and beyond the legally adopted requirements? I have not, and I do not envy those who have.

Keep in mind that local codes can be more restrictive than the NEC, in which case the AHJ absolutely does have authority to enforce the more strict requirements. I vaguely recall, for example, indeed using your example, that the City of Chicago has a local rule that requires the installation of an EGC, even if you are using EMT as the raceway.
Click to expand...

The City of Chicago does not require an EGC if you are using EMT.
 
I remember, back in the '80s, the inspectors here went around checking tightness of fittings on EMT and Rigid. Too many loose setscrews, compressions, or lock nuts and they would fail the install. After a while, they just said that with 3 or more loose connections, an EGC would be required. Eventually, there was this amendment and every raceway was required to have an EGC. Been that way ever since.

So, when an out-of-town EC comes in and does not bid EGCs in EVERY raceway, he gets a huge surprise. Conversely, when a local guy goes out of town to bid, he has to remember that he can bid some raceways without EGCs, or his price will be a little higher.
 
kzawada1 said:
when you are doing an installation and you have done all your work exactly as the print says and most important to the nec standards.My question is if the inspector or the ahj wants ,can he super-seed the code and make you go above code standards to complete the work,(for an example,lets say you run your emt you pull a black and a white and you leave out the ground to save some money,because the ground is not required to be pulled in e.m.t.The inspector or a.h.j can make you add the ground if he wishes which would going above the minumun code standards. I have a guy at the jobsite that doesnt believe the ahj can go above the minumum code standard,thanks for the help K zawada
Click to expand...

As an inspector I do not "Create" code on site, I enforce the code as it is written unless I encounter a situation that the code is not clear on and it demands my interp. But in all cases it must atleast meet or exceed the minimum standards set by the codes.

Now, if the approved plans say to put in that EGC and you choose not to then you have a problem because the approved plans call for it and we will demand it ( In Richmond,VA anyway and I am sure other areas also ). Since the plans are engineer approved and reviewed by municipal plan review it is not the end electricians choice at that point to decide not to use it....
 
Ragin Cajun said:
As an engineer, I give high fives to the AHJ's for enforcing what I put on the drawings.

RC
Click to expand...

It seems wrong to me to have municipal employees enforcing private contracts. :-?

Up here I see the EE or their representatives watching us for plan and specification compliance.
 
iwire said:
It seems wrong to me to have municipal employees enforcing private contracts. :-?

Up here I see the EE or their representatives watching us for plan and specification compliance.
Click to expand...

I think there is a grey area though. When the engineer stamps a drawing which might otherwise be rejected as non-compliant, the inspector pretty much has to inspect per the approved drawings. But I agree, too many engineers skate off into the sunset when they should, by all rights, inspect the job once or twice for themselves (of course, since their prices are shopped and whittled down by owners and architects, it may be that its just not in the price)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top