Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

[coppertreeelectric]

A county in NY that I do work in is now considering for the first time requiring that all electricians that work in the county become licensed. They are trying to weed out the fly by night or cob job electrician.

Their requirements to take the test are as follows:
- 7+ years working under a licensed electrician.
- If you have been in business for 11+ years you will be grandfathered and not have to take the test.
- $500 a yr fee

I am a licensed class-A Master Electrician in my county and have no problem with taking the test and paying their fee. The problem I have is that a great amount of the poor work I see in the field is not only from inexperienced electricians but also from companies who have been in business for 11+ yrs. I find that for the most part in my area that the older the company is the more likely the company may hire a 2nd yr Jr mechanic to run their jobs. The lack of supervision, experience and training = poor workmanship.

Now my biggest gripe is that the current inspectors in that county don?t do their job at all. They inspect by mail and never even visit the job site or they show up to the site and start filling out the inspection sticker before they even look at the job. I have seen some of these jobs that pass inspection and I feel it should be criminal for some of the jobs to pass inspection. These jobs not only include residential and commercial but also include work in the Hospital industry.

To the point, what is the answer to poor workmanship? Enforce a license that will grandfather in half of the bad electrician due to the ?How long in business? clause, or have electrical inspectors actually do their job.

Just because your licensed doesn?t mean you?re not lazy and do poor work.

I am discussing this in a forum environment because I would like to show the feedback to the licensing board and the inspector community in a means to push for better inspections as a way to enforce quality work.

Does anybody have a similar feeling on this matter? How do you feel about this matter?

 

[charlie]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Trust me, I feel your pain. However, can you just rip away a person's livelihood that has been the trade for years? Most people know what their limits are and will not work past them.

I feel like the answer is to train inspectors to do a good job, spot check them to verify that they are doing their job, reward those that are working hard to improve and get rid of those that are not. As much as I hear bad things about inspectors, they are indeed the keystone of the electrical industry. If the keystone is rotten, the arch will collapse. If the keystone is solid, the bad contractors will either learn how to do the work properly or get out of the trade (it cost too much money to keep going back to fix mistakes).

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Don't get me wrong. Most inspectors do their job in my area. It is one inspection company that I have a problem with and don't know how to go about correcting the problem. Who do you complain to. I don't like to get in the middle of things but I see a huge problem with one spisific inspection company who seems to let these bad electricians pass inspection.

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

However, can you just rip away a person's livelihood that has been the trade for years?

No. But if your a "good" electrician why shouldnt everyone become licensed?

 

[hbiss]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Care to tell us where you are and name names? Being in Westchester County I have a suspicion where you are. One of the owners of one inspection company is a member here. I can't imagine that you are talking about his company (if you are where I think you are) but he probably would have some input re inspections.

-Hal

 

[charlie]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

I agree but the question is grand-fathering. Anytime there is a new law of this nature, you have to permit this practice for that reason. However, you do not have to permit shoddy work.

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

The County in question is Dutchess County. The Inspection company I care to question is Commonwealth.

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

I agree but the question is grand-fathering. Anytime there is a new law of this nature, you have to permit this practice for that reason. However, you do not have to permit shoddy work.

Grand-fathering is my biggest question here. Why grandfather in anyone? Why not require everyone to take the test? Who is to say that a 11th yr electrician is better then a 7th yr electrician. I belive firmly that it takes about 1 year to learn the code (book smart, if you study) and about 5 years to learn tricks of the trade / how to do things right. Who is to say that the guy that has been doing work for 11+ years knows the code? I am ashamed to say that I am related to an electrician of 4 years in business who last looked at a code book in 1996. I cant even imagen planing a job without a code book these days. Not only does he not know the code but refuses to ref the NEC. His inspector mails him a sticker every time without even looking at his jobs. What is the point of a $65 inspection fee? Who is protecting the customer?

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

first and formost you must have an even playing field. to have this you must have educated and supervised inspectors providing your residents proper inspections and inforced equally to all contractors. you also must have a means to challenge any inspector or ruling. i agree grandfathering is wrong once it goes past five years---thats the basic length of time to become a journeyman --- a seventh year mechanic may know as much or maybe more than an eleventh year person. inspections should be administered by the county to be a minimal cost in both labor and permit fees, but again fair to all qualified contractors. when an inspector is challenged and looses, it should be recorded--not that this wrong--to be challenged---but to justify an inspector who is not fair to all contractors! justifiably, a record should also be kept for contractors who constantly fail inspections to justify a contractor who should be dropped from the qualified contractor list or require "re-testing"!!! the county must enforce the restrictions they impose on the trade --ie: arrest people who do work in their county without proper licenses and permits---and impose sever penalties!!!

 

[speedypetey]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Copper, I am also in Ulster County. This is the first I've heard of this. Where did you hear about it?

I totally agree about the fly-by-nights, DIY'ers, carpenters, etc. around here. How often do we have to come in and save the day so a messed up job can get a cover.

I'm not sure about this requirement though. $500 a year?? That is a bit steep for just one county IMO. A test? Yes. A fee? Yes. $500/yr??
It makes it hard for a smaller time outfit like myself. If I want to keep my C.O. Kingston license, and go Greene and Dutchess I imagine over a grand a year just for that. Larger outfits can absorb that cost no problem, but what about the little guy like me?

I know Greene county requires their own license, but I am not sure what the terms are. I will be looking into it this year. They are the next "it" place IMO. Northern Ulster sprawl is pushing upward.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Oh yeah, and I cant stand Commonwealth. I had one clown tell me I couldn't staple two 14/2 side by side down a 2x4. I asked him why and what about the 1.25" setback. He said no, it's 2 cables that are not allowed. It was "make up your own code day" I guess.

I use the NYBFU exclusively.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

I agree but the question is grand-fathering. Anytime there is a new law of this nature, you have to permit this practice for that reason. However, you do not have to permit shoddy work.

I generally like to see testing for everybody but the problem in this case is that there can be a lot of old timers who know the trade but are just no good at taking tests or studying like us younger people are. Is it fair to basically put him out of business when they actually do code compliant work in areas they are comfortable with?

Even testing is no guarantee the person will do the work properly, only that they knew the material at the time they took the test. Take somebody who has been in the business for twenty years and hasn't looked at the code book since they got their license. Are they any better than somebody in business for the same amount of time without a license?

What I'm getting at here is first, implementing a licensing program isn't going to clean up problems over night. It takes time to work and over time the "grandfathered" people will no longer be in the trade. They will be replaced by people who have gone through the "program". Second, no program is going to work without enforcement. Licensing or not, work must be fairly inspected to insure code compliance.

-Hal

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Originally posted by speedypetey:
I'm not sure about this requirement though. $500 a year?? That is a bit steep for just one county IMO. A test? Yes. A fee? Yes. $500/yr??
It makes it hard for a smaller time outfit like myself. If I want to keep my C.O. Kingston license, and go Greene and Dutchess I imagine over a grand a year just for that.

County and city/town licensing boggles my mind. Work should incur building permits from the town, kicking back to the county as desired. How can they justify $500 for a county electrical license? Forget it!

 

[pierre]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Hello Steven,
My name is Pierre Belarge, one of the principles of New York Electrical Inspection Services, Inc. We are a fairly new inspection company that broke into Westchester County about 10 months ago.
February 24th a thursday night, there is a Dutchess County Legislature's meeting pertaining to the new license agreement you have mentioned. It sounds to me like you should make an effort to attend this meeting, as it is very pivotal in having the county adopt the new license law.

New York State has been very slow to adopt any kind of license laws, for any trades - it is very political.
In order to put this license law together, it has to get past the legislatures. Because of that, some concessions had to be made, such as grandfathering in the existing 11+ year old companies.
Remember once this license goes through, it won't be too many years before the "old timers" are gone and all new contractors will have taken a test to get their license.

As far as the inspection company is concerned, you do have a venue to pursue. But be very careful in your choice, because once you start action the action continues until either the inspection company is found at fault, or you will be found at fault.
The person you want to contact in your area is Mark Anderson, he works as the regional AHJ for NYS - his number is 845 334-9378. The fact that you named names here tells me you feel very strongly about this, but remember my word of caution. If you cannot reach Mark, call Brian Tollisen at 518 474-4073.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
County and city/town licensing boggles my mind.

New York in a nutshell. You should see Long Island. :roll:

 

[coppertreeelectric]

Re: Inspectors VS License Which is the answer?

I'm from and learned electric on Long Island. I know its an issue in many areas.

As far as this whole situation goes. I spoke to an inspector friend at the NYSBFU and he advised to get in contact with the buildings department in that area as a quick fix for this one job site I know of major violations. If any experianced electrician saw the work that has is being done in a treatment area of a hospital you would see a serious problem. The work has already been inspected and passed, but the buildings department is to go in there this week and conduct the buildings inspection.

So for now I will just clue in the building inspector to question the electrical inspector.

I'm not out to get anyone in trouble. I take pride in my work, I go the extra lenth to do neat work. If I work on something new I always check the book. This guy hasent looked at one since 1996. Without a code book how do you know that an x-ray machine requires a disconnect near the controls for quick system shutdown? You wouldnt.