Installing gfi outlet in a non grounded house

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Stevenfyeager

Senior Member
Location
United States, Indiana
Occupation
electrical contractor
Inspector yesterday said I cannot install a gfi outlet in place of a non grounded outlet because it didn't trip when using his tester. It trips when using the test button but not when using his tester. (I thought that the test button is all that is necessary to work.) :(. Just across the river, in KY, all 12 of the Louisville Elec inspectors say we MUST install a gfi outlet when replacing a two hole non grounded outlet. Their reason, is since they in KY require tamper pf outlets, and new two hole tamper outlets are not available. Frustrating. One inspector makes me remove a new gfi, 12 other ones insist we install them. Now I have to run a whole new wire for one outlet (an old kitchen, therefore gfi). I wish things were more consistent. Do you have this going on too ? Thank you
 
Stevenfyeager said:
Inspector yesterday said I cannot install a gfi outlet in place of a non grounded outlet because it didn't trip when using his tester. It trips when using the test button but not when using his tester. (I thought that the test button is all that is necessary to work.)
Click to expand...

Um, the test button is THE ONLY THE ONLY APPROVED METHOD to test GFCI recs- an ext tester won't work unless there is a ground.....

By him testing it his way, he is violating 110.3(B).

The inspector doesn't know what he is talking about.:happyno:
 
Artilcle 406
406.4(D) (2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to
an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type
of receptacle(s). These receptacles or their cover plates shall be
marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault
circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from
the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where
supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Where
grounding-type receptacles are supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter, grounding-type receptacles or their
cover plates shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment
Ground,” visible after installation. An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the groundingtype
receptacles.
Click to expand...
 
Stevenfyeager said:
It trips when using the test button but not when using his tester.
Click to expand...

A GFCI receptacle test button connects a resistor from the hot after the balanced-current sensor to the neutral before the sensor to mimic a shock. A plug-in GFCI tester uses the EGC (instead of the neutral) to mimic a shock, because it doesn't have access to the neutral before the sensor.

He is wrong to expect a plug-in tester to trip the GFCI when there is no EGC. Also, as noted above, you should never interconnect EGC terminals among grounding receptacles on a non-grounded circuit, because a fault in one appliance with an EGC could energize another appliance's EGC.
 
user 100 said:
Um, the test button is THE ONLY THE ONLY APPROVED METHOD to test GFCI recs- an ext tester won't work unless there is a ground.....

By him testing it his way, he is violating 110.3(B).

The inspector doesn't know what he is talking about.:happyno:
Click to expand...
Well said.

Roger
 
i would call the AHJ directly and explain to them the situation, what the NEC says, and your view on the whole thing. voila, you then keep installing them as you were.
 
Present this guy with a GFCI under a metallic weatherproof cover - and no EGC with a well grounded surface to stand on, better yet to have it really low so he has to kneel down to access it.

When he is holding that cover up while plugging in his tester, see how high he jumps or how loud he screams when he presses the GFCI test button on his tester - pressing test button will connect a small load from the "hot" to the "open ground", and he is most certain to be in a current path in this situation.
 
More to the point, UL White Book:

OUTLET CIRCUIT TESTERS (QCYU)
GENERAL
This category covers portable devices with fixed attachment-plug blades, or probes attached to flexible leads, used to indicate various wiring conditions in 15 or 20 A branch circuits by a pattern of lights or other similar means ...................
These devices are not intended for use as comprehensive diagnostic instruments.
Click to expand...


Emphasis is mine.

 
kwired said:
When he is holding that cover up while plugging in his tester, see how high he jumps or how loud he screams when he presses the GFCI test button on his tester - pressing test button will connect a small load from the "hot" to the "open ground", and he is most certain to be in a current path in this situation.
Click to expand...

And, the GFCI in question should trip. There's his test. :p
 
user 100 said:
Um, the test button is THE ONLY THE ONLY APPROVED METHOD to test GFCI recs- an ext tester won't work unless there is a ground.....

By him testing it his way, he is violating 110.3(B).

The inspector doesn't know what he is talking about.:happyno:
Click to expand...
I have never seen written instructions with a GFCI that said you can't use an external testing device.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I have never seen written instructions with a GFCI that said you can't use an external testing device.
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Ever see written instructions that say external testing devices are permitted and accepted?

Back to the OP.... an ungrounded GFCI will not trip with an external tester. It cannot because there's no ground to send a 'fault' to.
 
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480sparky said:
Ever see written instructions that say external testing devices are permitted and accepted?

Back to the OP.... an ungrounded GFCI will not trip with an external tester. It cannot because there's no ground to send a 'fault' to.
Click to expand...
But if you test to any other potential with a low impedance meter you still trip them if they are working correctly.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I have never seen written instructions with a GFCI that said you can't use an external testing device.
Click to expand...

480sparky said:
Ever see written instructions that say external testing devices are permitted and accepted?.
Click to expand...

^^^^
This

The instructions tell you to use the TEST button once a month in order to test the device.

There is no mention of an external tester- implying any other method of testing is not allowed to test the device.
 
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