Insurance Claim or not...

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1793

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I received a phone call from a customer I did some work for about a month ago. He said he wanted to put me on notice that after I did some work in the attic above his garage some a water pipe froze and burst. When it thawed, needless to say he sustained some water damage in his kitchen. A plumber was call and fixed the water line. A hole had to be cut in the ceiling of the kitchen. He said he would get back with me later. He said that I moved some insulation and did not put it back. I am sure I did move the insulation but put it back. I just don't remember. I don't have the $$ amount yet. I'm sure he is looking to me to pay for the damage. I Would like to hear from anyone who has been through situation and how it was dealt with.

Thank you in advanced

Norb

PS Happy New Year to all
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

Something that alot of contractors don't know is that basic liability insurance only covers you while on the job or over the duration of the work. Anything that happens after you leave the job or once the work is complete is no longer covered. Check your policy carefully and contact your agent to ensure you have the proper coverage for your needs and optimal protection
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I agree with Bob,

Contact your insurance company. Review what they will & won't do with respect to this situation. At the same time, gather together everything you have that pertains to this job. Reconstruct a description of what you did, in the order that it was done. Analyze the arrangement of the existing installation to determine the reasonableness of the fault being attributed to the work that you did. (Water pipes in insulated attics above garages are very rare in my area. . .maybe there is a history of freeze damage, i.e., bad plumbing design)

Depending upon your deductible, you may want to handle the resolution outright, if it's wholly reasonable that you are at fault. Involve the insurance adjuster if there is a dispute. Bring in legal assistance if the adjuster can't resolve it.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

There is a chance that the guy only wants an easy settlement and will not sue.He would need to prove you were the cause and that might be hard to do.I would do nothing untill he contacts you or sues you.In short call his bluff.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I have put my agent on notice that there might be a claim or investigation. I think they will work with me. I am going to sit back and wait for a call to see just what is being requested. It is nice to have a place we can all turn to for other views to all sorts of situations. Thanks for the input from everyone. I will update as this unfolds.

Norb
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

The down side of this is if they treaten to sue your insurance company will likely just pay rather than try to fight it.Guilty or not your insurance will go up.My guess is you will not get sued.To do so would require that plumber to testify in court that you uncovered the pipe and that alone was the cause of the pipe freezing.It must be a very cold place that the heat from inside did not keep the temp from going to below 32.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

it takes a lot more than just below freezing to burst a copper pipe, even M. Im areas where it is well below freezing, house plumbing, not heat, is usually type L.

If the house was occupied and the pipe was just above the ceiling ( to be below the insulation), it would take a period of several hours of no water usage and assuming the house was 68 deg., at least in the teens for this to happen.

2 questions; how did the pipe that burst in the attic over the garage cause a water leak over the kitchen, not the garage; and it would be interesting to find out if the house was either unoccupied or lost it's heat for any period of time just prior to this oroblem.

i worked as plumbing repaiman in the 70's in NY state and people with old houses with drafty basements didn't even worry about freezing pipes in crawl spaces unless there was some hole to the exterior where wind blew across the pipe, no insulation, no heat. earth was good enough. i would think that quite a bit of heat would rise from counteracting heat loss around where the insuation was missing, and this rising heat should have kept the pipe from freezing.

but what do i know

paul

if he sues and it's not small claims, he's probably assuming your insurance will cough it up.

assuming you are in the right, ... i just backspaced over all my brilliant legal advice as i just don't know enough about your situation, and enough about the insurance, and about the specific statutes that you are under.

good luck

paul
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I'm not a plumber. I don't know the age of the home. I thought water pipes are not to be run in unheated attic spaces. You know what is normal for your area. If it's not normal call the building department and ask what the rules are. Maybe the pipes installed and repairs don't meet code. If that was the case you might be off the hook. Also what proof does he have that you caused the pipe to freeze?

Tom
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

My opinion - don't waste your time on this. You're not an expert in this area and the time it will cost you is better off spent doing what you know rather than what you don't.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

Thought I would post an update:

I have received a bill in the amount $205.91 for repairs done due to water damage caused by water lines freezing and bursting. I have decided to pay this amount and send a letter with payment stating that I do not recognize that I did anything wrong or negligent but in the interest of goodwill I would pay this small amount. I just want this to go away.

Norb
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

Personally, this seems to me like a tacit admission of respsonsibility. I might pay it, but would expect a full waiver in return.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

A full waiver?

"First and foremost, this letter is in no way is an admission of wrong doing, errors or negligence from the electrical work done at your home this past December. While I did move some insulation in the wall between the garage and the house during the course of my work, I am confident that it was replaced. With the addition of the new wire, however, the insulation may have shifted from its original position.

While I am unsure of the exact day you encountered your plumbing issues, I can discern from the receipts you provided that it occurred on or before December 20th. According to www.Wunderground.com, the lowest temperature recorded for the days surrounding your repairs were:

Dec 17th 28 Degrees
Dec 18th 28 Degrees
Dec 19th 16 Degrees
Dec 20th 12 Degrees
Dec 21st 35 Degrees
Dec 22nd 21 Degrees

I, too, live in the neighborhood and have two water lines that supply outdoor spigots from an unfinished basement that did NOT freeze, even when the mercury plummeted to only 1 degree on December 25th.

In the interest of goodwill, however, enclosed is a check in the amount of $205.91 for reimbursement of your repair expenses."

Norb
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I think i would add that "please do not call me for any service work in the future"
He burned you once ,isn't that enough?
Would leave out the part about insulation shifting.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

Thanks Jim. This is a rough draft of what I am planning on sending out. The more eyes the better.

Norb
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I had thought we were too late to offer any additional advice, and that you had already sent the check. If you have not, then my advice is do not. At least not yet. I suggest you consider sending the invoice back to the owner, stamped as ?rejected.? You did not cause this, and therefore he cannot prove that you caused this. Whether you moved insulation or not, and whether you replaced insulation or not, you did not cause this. There is no reason to seek this person?s ?good will.?

Here are some questions that would serve your interests, if this came into a court of law. They may also be worth a friendly discussion with the owner, if the two of you are on speaking terms. Basically, how does he know that your actions made the pipe more susceptible to failure?
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What other contractors had been in the same area of the attic, doing what kind of work?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What work had the owner done in this same area.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How long had the owner lived here, how cold does it normally get, and how do you know that the freeze did not take place before you had even arrived? That is, was the area cold when you did your work?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How old is the pipe? How close to failure had it been, and for how long?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
But even if you prefer to settle the matter by paying the cost, then consider these points:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What else had been damaged?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What repair bills will he send you next week, after he cashes your first check, and after he discovers that you have accepted responsibility?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No matter what you say in your letter, if you pay, then you will be deemed to have been responsible.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

I would recommend holding off on paying this, because it may be construed as accepting responsibility for the damage. What's next, are you going to get a bill for the toaster and microwave that got water on it????

Second, I have never seen water lines being run in an attic and the only protection is insulation. I'm not a plumber, but I strongly suspect that this plumbing work was a hack job done by a DIY. Perhaps the owner before him did this and he has no clue that this was wrong.

I would contact the local building inspector, explain the circumstances and get his or her opinion. If they say this was not up to code, or a poor installation, I would inform the home owner that it is not your problem.

We don't know this person, but he could possibly be the local scam artist who is always getting money out of people for non existent issues!
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

Here is a thought.Send it back (make copy first"
Tell him you will need proof it was caused by you.He will not sue you over $200 and his plumber will not want to testify if it cost him time in court.Perhaps have a chat with the plumber and let him know you will go to court.I think they will just back off.Hold onto that check for a bit.See if he hires a lawyer.
 
Re: Insurance Claim or not...

The others suggesting an assumption of liability are fairly correct. If you want to get this guy to go away, you need to get him to sign a complete release of all possible claims against you for any cause. You also need him to sign an agreement to such before he gets the check. Part of that agreement is that he also needs to sign a statement that he knows that he did not get legal counsel and he is releasing you from any liability for ALL conditions anyway.

If it was a big enough deal, he could still sue you, but this would make it more difficult for him to win.

If he won't sign that statement, paying him is near accepting of responsibility for the damage.

Just talked to my sister who was a lawyer and she says that this area is a mess and getting clear releases is very difficult if you do not know what you are doing. Dhe also said that you paying him was accepting responsibility, even with disclaimer.

I started this a bit ago so my post may be out of loogical sequence with other posters.

good luck, paul
 
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