Insurance surcharge and FP breakers

[mark32]

Hey guys,

An acquaintance of mine is in the midst of purchasing a few residential buildings. He was told the previous owner was being surcharged over $300k a year because the main breakers for each unit are Federal Pacific. (Each unit has a sub panel, which had been upgraded years ago, but the mains located in the basement, were not). We first discussed changing the enclosures, then, just swapping out the mains with a replacement, like the ones Connecticut Electric makes. Days later, he was told by someone that the FP breakers under scrutiny are really only 15a and 20a single pole breakers, and not two pole 50's and 60's like the ones in question. I looked online but could not find anything supporting this. In conversation, I told him to discuss this with the current insurance company, and to shop around other insurance companies and see what he can find. I'm guessing FP has such an unsavory rep in the industry that they're going to charge you whether the issue were with single poles or not. Truth be told, I'm just shooting from the hip, for me in my world, customers are always like, "Oh, it's a FP panel, it's gotta go". But this is not a one or two family dwelling, we're talking over 200 units. So, obviously it's in this guys best interest to find the most feasible solution. Thanks in advance for your most valuable opinions ~

 

[brycenesbitt]

Look, according to the only guy who's actually put in the shoe leather on this issue:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8283732

--
It's not pretty reading. The identity of the brand X and Y breakers are an open secret, and let's just say that tucitcennoC cirtcelE are on that list.
--
You need to get the real scoop on this situation to know what to do. The Fire Potential Electric really do have to go. There's some evidence that the FPE two pole are the worst, but the number of fully jammed (never tripping) 1 pole units is just too high.

 

[brycenesbitt]

Post the details, with photos. There MAY be new guts for those old FPE mains.
Other insurance threads include https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/insurance-co-wont-underwrite-zinsco-but-will-fpe.2582678/

 

[BarryO]

Look, according to the only guy who's actually put in the shoe leather on this issue:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8283732

--
It's not pretty reading. The identity of the brand X and Y breakers are an open secret, and let's just say that tucitcennoC cirtcelE are on that list.
--
You need to get the real scoop on this situation to know what to do. The Fire Potential Electric really do have to go. There's some evidence that the FPE two pole are the worst, but the number of fully jammed (never tripping) 1 pole units is just too high.

Interesting take away is that fuses are a far more dependable overcurrent protection device. Makes sense I guess; mass-producing pieces of copper to a designed shape is straightforward. Two pole and arc fault fuses not so much unfortunately. But the paper notes:

It is the authors’ opinion that the more than half-century old residential thermal-magnetic breaker technology may have run its course. Solid-state power electronics can now be used to create residential overcurrent protection that has precise current-time trip characteristics, that is sealed from environmental moisture and corrosives, that is tamper proof, not temperature sensitive, and that has a multi-pole common trip function that will not jam. All that and more is possible with today’s solid state logic and power electronic technology, which is already employed in switching and control applications at higher current and voltage levels than those present in residential load centers​

 

[mark32]

Thank you for taking the time to write guys! While I'm curious as to the best/most feasible solution, I will have limited involvement with this project. If I am to participate, it would be to work alongside an EC friend of mine, as I don't have the time to tackle something of this size solo.

 

[mark32]

Here's a pic that was sent to me

 

[Hv&Lv]

Is it just the FPE breakers themselves or the stab lock design? There are replacement breakers made by different manufacturers that will plug right in

 

[jim dungar]

Interesting take away is that fuses are a far more dependable overcurrent protection device. Makes sense I guess; mass-producing pieces of copper to a designed shape is straightforward. Two pole and arc fault fuses not so much unfortunately. But the paper notes:

It is the authors’ opinion that the more than half-century old residential thermal-magnetic breaker technology may have run its course. Solid-state power electronics can now be used to create residential overcurrent protection that has precise current-time trip characteristics, that is sealed from environmental moisture and corrosives, that is tamper proof, not temperature sensitive, and that has a multi-pole common trip function that will not jam. All that and more is possible with today’s solid state logic and power electronic technology, which is already employed in switching and control applications at higher current and voltage levels than those present in residential load centers​

The modern molded case thermal-magnetic breaker, like the Square D QO brand, has been available for some 75 years. There is no proof that fuses are 'far more dependable' in residential applications.

This sounds like marketing hype, justifying new products.

 

[letgomywago]

The modern molded case thermal-magnetic breaker, like the Square D QO brand, has been available for some 75 years. There is no proof that fuses are 'far more dependable' in residential applications.

This sounds like marketing hype, justifying new products.

Dependable I'd say is different to different people. Low power devices use fuses just for the protection level it offers. I like having the ability to over use a wire a bit for a short time like when starting a motor and so for me I'd rather have a breaker on a kitchen circuit.

 

[petersonra]

Dependable I'd say is different to different people. Low power devices use fuses just for the protection level it offers. I like having the ability to over use a wire a bit for a short time like when starting a motor and so for me I'd rather have a breaker on a kitchen circuit.

Take a look at the curves for both devices before you say that.

 

[BarryO]

The modern molded case thermal-magnetic breaker, like the Square D QO brand, has been available for some 75 years. There is no proof that fuses are 'far more dependable' in residential applications.

The data presented in the paper does not seem to support that conclusion:

The fuses that were tested represent a cross section of brands, ratings and types. Within each type and brand, individual fuses were very closely matched in performance. The range of trip points reflects different types of fuses with slow or fast response to suit the characteristics of the utilization equipment on the circuit. Only the best-performing brands of circuit breakers provide reliable circuit protection equal to these fuses.​

​

. . .​

For many decades our system of standards, listing, labeling and periodic inspections by an NRTL has fallen short of assuring the expected and required level of performance for all brands of residential molded case circuit breakers that are marketed.​

 

[jim dungar]

The data presented in the paper does not seem to support that conclusion:

The fuses that were tested represent a cross section of brands, ratings and types. Within each type and brand, individual fuses were very closely matched in performance. The range of trip points reflects different types of fuses with slow or fast response to suit the characteristics of the utilization equipment on the circuit. Only the best-performing brands of circuit breakers provide reliable circuit protection equal to these fuses.​

​

. . .​

For many decades our system of standards, listing, labeling and periodic inspections by an NRTL has fallen short of assuring the expected and required level of performance for all brands of residential molded case circuit breakers that are marketed.​

Based on my singular experience, of some 45 years, I would not put much faith in a single paper pushing fuses over breaker for the residential marketplace.

Show me any world wide factual statistics proving breaker do a poor job of protecting residential systems.

 

[petersonra]

Based on my singular experience, of some 45 years, I would not put much faith in a single paper pushing fuses over breaker for the residential marketplace.

Show me any world wide factual statistics proving breaker do a poor job of protecting residential systems.

I want to know who paid for this research.

 

[brycenesbitt]

Is it just the FPE breakers themselves or the stab lock design? There are replacement breakers made by different manufacturers that will plug right in

It's both.
The stabs get tired and burn.
---
But the lab tests are about the breakers failing to trip.
The Challenger replacement breakers are the SAME DESIGN, and have a VERY SIMILAR failure curve, on the lab tests.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8283732
(The identities of each mystery brand are not in the article, but you can find them with a web search or by emailing the author).

 

[ramsy]

Based on my singular experience, of some 45 years, I would not put much faith in a single paper pushing fuses over breaker for the residential marketplace.

Show me any world wide factual statistics proving breaker do a poor job of protecting residential systems.

* Modern circuit breakers with integrated circuits can't handle electronic noise, don't survive long outdoors, much less utility transients, solar storms, and often fail in the energized position, when test button wont trip.

* Panel flippers sell old breakers for peanuts to re-sellers who recycle & re-sell.

* Used circuit breaker suppliers wont confirm short circuit, overload, & calibration function. when re-selling molded case, or other frame-size circuit breakers.

* Fuse boxes wont obstruct xFCI safety devices at point of use, or first opening.

* Fuses will always be more reliable, but less idiot proof without a reset.

 

[Fred B]

Is it just the FPE breakers themselves or the stab lock design? There are replacement breakers made by different manufacturers that will plug right in

I believe it's the stab-loc design (very small contact points) creating a poor connection and heating. Also add in poorly functioning breakers you got a recipe for disaster. personally never seen a FPE Stab-loc breaker in a tripped position, but have had some you simply couldn't turn off. Not sure that the FPE Bolt-on or main breaker independent switch were included in the testing that lead to the recall/loss of listing. The thermal-magnetic trip wouldn't trip within the limits of the circuit conditions, heating and subsequent fire.

Another problematic breaker design is the Push-matic. (is it off, is it tripped, is it back on, Maybe, don't know)

 

[jim dungar]

* Modern circuit breakers with integrated circuits can't handle electronic noise, don't survive long outdoors, much less utility transients, solar storms, and often fail in the energized position, when test button wont trip.

* Panel flippers sell old breakers for peanuts to re-sellers who recycle & re-sell.

* Used circuit breaker suppliers wont confirm short circuit, overload, & calibration function. when re-selling molded case, or other frame-size circuit breakers.

* Fuse boxes wont obstruct xFCI safety devices at point of use, or first opening.

* Fuses will always be more reliable, but less idiot proof without a reset.

All opinions, just ones different than mine, the majority of which are installer and design issues
None of which are factual data about their abilities to protect residences.

How many fusible only residential systems do you install?

 

[brycenesbitt]

Not sure that the FPE Bolt-on or main breaker independent switch were included in the testing that lead to the recall/loss of listing. The thermal-magnetic trip wouldn't trip within the limits of the circuit conditions, heating and subsequent fire.

The FPE were never recalled, never delisted. That despite the company that purchased the assets disclosing that their predecessor had faked their UL listing data. The CSPC closed the investigation citing lack of funding.
--
NFIRS data would be the natural place to identify what safer (fuses or breakers? FPE or Zinsco?), but the panel data is missing https://www.usfa.fema.gov/nfirs/

You can see what's included at https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/nfirs/nfirs_coding_questions_2016.pdf
--
Insurance companies have private claims data they don't share, and presumably make their own decisions. But by the time it gets to the underwriters it's been dumbed down and is really formula based that may have no relationship to the true risk.

 

[Jraef]

The real crux of the issue is that FPE is a tainted name, insurance companies that make policy decisions on them are not interested in getting into the weeds on this issue, they just make a simpler blanket decision: “NO FPE”. Done… there is nobody to argue with on the details.

In ALL of the FPE rejection situations I have encountered over the years, the use of the aftermarket replacements does NOT mitigate the insurance company ban. The stink of FPE failures permeates everything even remotely associated. Same with Zinsco and in fact, often extends into other Challenger brands that had absolutely nothing to do with the old Zinsco products. Insurance companies want simplistic responses to statistical analyses, details are irrelevant to them.

 

[dm9289]

Here's a pic that was sent to me View attachment 2573538

If I can add to your open can of worms, I had some insurance company experience with perhaps a similar situation.

There was an apartment that had a small fire, affected 2 units. No injuries the FPE panel was not proved to be the cause to my knowledge.
I did see panels with arcing damage.
Insurance company came to investigate found that most individual units had FPE panels, some were replaced.
Insurance company would not renew unless all panels were replaced and inspected. At any price
Set up looked similar to yours the panels in the units were fed with 3 wire SE cable, AHJ viewed individual units panels as subpanels and would not pass inspection without 4wire feed.
All units needed new SER cable and panels to pass inspection as well as system grounding updates at the main disco.
My point is this could get nasty the more you dig for your friend.