Insurance

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Hendrix

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New England
Insurance comapnies are demanding a change from fuse boxes to breaker panels around here. The old services are 60 amp and to save $$ some homeowners want to replace the " fuse box" only and not bring the service up to code. 230.79(c) is clear and I think that when you touch that service, you should go the distance and replace the meter socket, SE cable and riser with 100amp rated equipment. What do you guys think?
 
Although I think it is a good idea, I do not think it should be required if it is a panel swap only.

If someone had a bad receptacle on an existing 15 amp circuit going to kitchen/bath: Would he/she be required to replace the whole circuit instead of just the receptacle?
 
Insurance comapnies are demanding a change from fuse boxes to breaker panels around here. The old services are 60 amp and to save $$ some homeowners want to replace the " fuse box" only and not bring the service up to code. 230.79(c) is clear and I think that when you touch that service, you should go the distance and replace the meter socket, SE cable and riser with 100amp rated equipment. What do you guys think?

I don't understand why they would make you change when fuses are safer than breakers.
 
Bringing an installation ?up to Code? by virtue of a specific addition, alteration or repair is basically a local issue. Annex H. Section 80.9(C) reflects the general consensus at the time NFPA attempted to develop a ?model code? for NEC Administration and Enforcement:

80.9(C) Additions, Alterations, or Repairs.​
Additions, alterations, or repairs to any building, structure, or premises shall conform to that required of a new building without requiring the existing building to comply with all the requirements of this Code. Additions, alterations, installations, or repairs shall not cause an existing building to become unsafe or to adversely affect the performance of the building as determined by the authority having jurisdiction. Electrical wiring added to an existing service, feeder, or branch circuit shall not result in an installation that violates the provisions of the Code in force at the time the additions are made.
 
Probably because it's harder to 'reset' a breaker with a piece of copper tubing or a penny.

Also a HO is likely to install whatever size fuse he has available. Most common instance is a 25 or 30A fuse on a 15A circuit. The companies here say their reasoning is most HO can't or won't replace a breaker but will screw in the wrong fuse. We are also required to replace the fuse panel with a 100A minimum breaker panel if a change is made. If no circuits are extended or added, the other current code requirements are not required, ie: AFCI, hard wired smokes, etc.
 
Insurance comapnies are demanding ...

As a private business they're permitted to negotiate their contracts as they see fit. They cannot require you to comply; they simply don't have to contract with you. As opposed to the state of Indiana that put in place a deadline requiring all mobile home services to be upgraded to 100A whether anyone wanted it or not. Grandfathering service was not permitted.

Of course, I suppose someone might have gotten that law revoked if they'd been willing to push it to the Indiana Supreme Court. But at what price?
 
You replace something - as opposed to repair- you get to meet the new code rules.

Newer code specifies a 100-amp minimum service disconnect. The old, round meter bases are rated fro 60 amps. Therefore, you need to replace the meter base.

100 amps requires larger wire than 60 amps, and the PoCo standards may mandate a 2" minimum riser anyway. Remember- with a service change, the local PoCo is the AHJ, and you need to work with them.

You mentioned "insurance company" requirements. Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic.

I have obtained parts of a 'claims manual' from one insurance company. (If you ever saw "The Rainmaker," you have some idea of the significance of this manual). Now, before you dither about each company being different, you have to know that the manual refernces "Insurance Institute" standards. Yes, they have their own, confidential, trade association rules. These rules are, in turn, often determined by various legal actions, so an individual carrier is not likely to vary much in the application of the rules.

Simply, put, there are different 'levels' of homeowners' insurance. The criteria used to classify a property addresses many things, some completely unrelated to the property itself.

Past a certain age - 40 years is one figure- insurance companies don't just say 'we want breakers.' What they actually ask is: were the utilities (plumbing, sewer, electrical, etc.) ever brought up to a more recent code? If so, by whom and when? In practical terms, this means the underwriter is going to be looking for a 100-amp meter base and breakers. Simply swapping out fuses for breakers - there are screw-in breakers made for this- won't make the agent happy. Nor will simply swapping out panels. He wants to see that some real work was done, by someone who knew what he was doing.

Another element is grounding. Many old places do not have any ground besides the water bond; this isn't enough. The agent is looking for that ground rod, too.

It's a pity the insurance industry is so secretive about these things. They seem to have this belief that sharing information will result only in misunderstanding and fraud. So, they are taught to never actually answer a question. They're not about to give you a 'punch list' of things you can do to improve your rates and your coverage.

Your customer also needs to know something else: after having a policy for a year, they will likely be able to get a better, cheaper policy from another firm. What improvements they make during that year has a major effect on that possibility. Do the least possible, and you'll be stuck with the worst possible coverage and the highest rates.
 
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