Integrating a conventional fire alarm system with an addressable fire alarm system

[Tainted]

The building has a conventional fire alarm system and the control panel is dead and needs to be replaced. They want to keep all their existing devices but I want them to install an addressable fire alarm system.

If I replace the conventional fire alarm system with an addressable one, how can I do that if the existing devices (strobes, bells, smoke detector, etc.) are not addressable?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You can't without spending a lot of money to add addressable modules that the conventional devices can connect to.

 

[Tainted]

You can't without spending a lot of money to add addressable modules that the conventional devices can connect to.

I found this:

https://www.douglaskrantz.com/QFHowDoIConnect2Panels.html




What if I tell them to get a new conventional fire alarm panel and a new addressable and connect it as shown above? I would prefer they use an addressable fire alarm system for future fire alarm devices if possible while maintaining their existing conventional one.

 

[stretch12]

New smart facp put monitor modules for existing zones nac can be on new facp, and any additional devices , make new , slc and address able devices.

 

[Tainted]

New smart facp put monitor modules for existing zones nac can be on new facp, and any additional devices , make new , slc and address able devices.

sorry, I am so confused what you are saying

 

[farmantenna]

you use an addressable monitor module for each conventional zone. connect NACs to new panel

 

[gadfly56]

farmantenna has the sort of the right idea. Monitor modules, depending on brand, may have a limited distance they are good for. Also, they won't be good for any zone that has smoke detectors on it. Using Siemens as an example, you would install CPM panel and use a CDC-4 module, since you're likely to have smokes, heats, and pulls randomly distributed on the zone. This will accommodate 4 conventional zones. Use a NAC booster panel that can accommodate whatever the current notification devices are installed, and you're done.

 

[Strathead]

farmantenna has the sort of the right idea. Monitor modules, depending on brand, may have a limited distance they are good for. Also, they won't be good for any zone that has smoke detectors on it. Using Siemens as an example, you would install CPM panel and use a CDC-4 module, since you're likely to have smokes, heats, and pulls randomly distributed on the zone. This will accommodate 4 conventional zones. Use a NAC booster panel that can accommodate whatever the current notification devices are installed, and you're done.

Why are you saying monitor modules won't be any good for a zone with smoke dettectors on it? It has been years, but I have done that many times.

 

[gadfly56]

Why are you saying monitor modules won't be any good for a zone with smoke dettectors on it? It has been years, but I have done that many times.

Smoke detectors require 24VDC to operate. Monitor modules are only looking for a closed contact.

 

[Tainted]

Why are you saying monitor modules won't be any good for a zone with smoke dettectors on it? It has been years, but I have done that many times.

Also NYC code requires monitor modules to be within 3 feet of the device it's monitoring... so having a monitor module at 1 zone is impossible because this rule will require monitor modules next to each detector..

farmantenna has the sort of the right idea. Monitor modules, depending on brand, may have a limited distance they are good for. Also, they won't be good for any zone that has smoke detectors on it. Using Siemens as an example, you would install CPM panel and use a CDC-4 module, since you're likely to have smokes, heats, and pulls randomly distributed on the zone. This will accommodate 4 conventional zones. Use a NAC booster panel that can accommodate whatever the current notification devices are installed, and you're done.

So what you're saying is I should install a addressable siemens FACP and include CDC-4 modules to take care of the existing smokes, pulls, heats etc. and then get a new NAC booster panel to take care of the existing NAC's?

 

[gadfly56]

Also NYC code requires monitor modules to be within 3 feet of the device it's monitoring... so having a monitor module at 1 zone is impossible because this rule will require monitor modules next to each detector..

So what you're saying is I should install a addressable siemens FACP and include CDC-4 modules to take care of the existing smokes, pulls, heats etc. and then get a new NAC booster panel to take care of the existing NAC's?

Monitor modules do NOT have to be within 3 feet of the device they monitor. RELAY modules must be within 3 feet of the device they control.

I'm not saying you can only do Siemens. I used it as an example. You can do the same thing with Silent Knight, or almost any brand. Just not Simplex. Never Simplex. Simplex is evil. If the notification appliances are fired from the panel, unless the addressable panel is the same brand as the existing one, then there is going to be a different sync protocol for your strobe devices and you'll need a booster panel to run the current notification appliances.

 

[MichaelGP3]

I found this:

https://www.douglaskrantz.com/QFHowDoIConnect2Panels.html

View attachment 2567326


What if I tell them to get a new conventional fire alarm panel and a new addressable and connect it as shown above? I would prefer they use an addressable fire alarm system for future fire alarm devices if possible while maintaining their existing conventional one.

IMO, this is being overthought. Emergency panel replacements should be done as expediently and inexpensively as can be, taking into account that significant overtime pay may be involved - or saved if your actions result in the customer not having to pay for a fire watch for very long. If that conventional panel, or one that is compatible with the existing devices, is available, get one and have it installed.

Regarding your diagram, if it is a monitored system check with the communicator's manufacturer. I know of some who require that a separate digital communicator be installed for each FACP, so the costs associated with that should be factored in.

 

[farmantenna]

You use monitor modules designed to monitor 2-wire smoke detectors. SD500-SDM etc

 

[Strathead]

You use monitor modules designed to monitor 2-wire smoke detectors. SD500-SDM etc

Thank you. I tried to look it up, but I have done this more than once and couldn't remember how or why.

 

[gadfly56]

You use monitor modules designed to monitor 2-wire smoke detectors. SD500-SDM etc

Silent Knight calls it a "Two-Wire Smoke Module", and it still requires a 24VDC input.

https://firealarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/SD500-SDM.pdf

 

[joenate1983]

How long have you been in the fire alarm industry as an installer/techncian? My answer depends on that because you may not understand what I'm saying.

 

[joenate1983]

The notification appliances do not need to be addressable in an addressable fire alarm system. In some instances, you may need to replace the power supplies, if appliance compatibility or synchronization becomes an issue.

If they want to keep the conventional initiating devices and you want to install an addressable panel, you can use monitor modules for each zone of devices. For example, let's say zone 1 is all 1st floor pull stations. You can use a monitor module to supervise this zone of conventional pull stations. You can do this for each zone. Please ensure you properly label the exterior/cover of the module with its loop, address, and location/device description (example: Loop 1 Address 1 - 1st flr pulls). Do the same in system programming. Nothing is worse than non-labeled or improperly/inaccurate-labeled devices.

If you have 4-wire smoke detectors, you still need power to the smoke detectors.

Make sure you account for any internal relays that may be used for door holder de-energization, access control release, etc.

Another option are hybrid systems that can combine conventional and addressable concepts.

 

[Tainted]

How long have you been in the fire alarm industry as an installer/techncian? My answer depends on that because you may not understand what I'm saying.

I've designed fire alarm plans and called out input/outputs but I never actually "programmed" anything or gotten my hands dirty. I've been doing fire alarm design for commercial spaces, healthcare, business and schools for 2.5 years and then almost all my work is now residential for the remaining years. I am a fairy new PE too. Doing fire alarm plans from scratch is easy, and I admit that I feel like contractors do most of the work. All we do is just make pretty drawings with specs.

The notification appliances do not need to be addressable in an addressable fire alarm system. In some instances, you may need to replace the power supplies, if appliance compatibility or synchronization becomes an issue.

If they want to keep the conventional initiating devices and you want to install an addressable panel, you can use monitor modules for each zone of devices. For example, let's say zone 1 is all 1st floor pull stations. You can use a monitor module to supervise this zone of conventional pull stations. You can do this for each zone. Please ensure you properly label the exterior/cover of the module with its loop, address, and location/device description (example: Loop 1 Address 1 - 1st flr pulls). Do the same in system programming. Nothing is worse than non-labeled or improperly/inaccurate-labeled devices.

If you have 4-wire smoke detectors, you still need power to the smoke detectors.

Make sure you account for any internal relays that may be used for door holder de-energization, access control release, etc.

Another option are hybrid systems that can combine conventional and addressable concepts.

I do understand it seems it's better to monitor all existing zones with monitor modules, but what if a zone has a mixture of different types of initiating devices? If zone 1 has a mixed conventional initiating devices such as pull stations and smoke detectors, etc. how will the monitor module differentiate which of the conventional devices were initiated in that 1 zone?

Reason I ask is because the supervising station will need to know which of the initiating devices have been initiated.

 

[joenate1983]

I've designed fire alarm plans and called out input/outputs but I never actually "programmed" anything or gotten my hands dirty. I've been doing fire alarm design for commercial spaces, healthcare, business and schools for 2.5 years and then almost all my work is now residential for the remaining years. I am a fairy new PE too. Doing fire alarm plans from scratch is easy, and I admit that I feel like contractors do most of the work. All we do is just make pretty drawings with specs.


I do understand it seems it's better to monitor all existing zones with monitor modules, but what if a zone has a mixture of different types of initiating devices? If zone 1 has a mixed conventional initiating devices such as pull stations and smoke detectors, etc. how will the monitor module differentiate which of the conventional devices were initiated in that 1 zone?

Reason I ask is because the supervising station will need to know which of the initiating devices have been initiated.

Great question. Unfortunately, monitor modules will not be able to differentiate device type. The contact side of the monitor module is only looking for its supervisory (closed circuit) voltage facilitated by its end-of-line resistor. That's all it does: supervise wiring and electrical contacts on the devices.

On a side note, it befuddles me why installers mix zones with different types of initiating devices UNLESS it's a small setting. Say I have a daycare and a conventional fire alarm system. I would design such that each classroom is on its own zone. Typically, there is one or two detectors and one pull station. In that situation, device mixing on the same zone is fine because zone coverage is restricted to a small area; therefore, it's still time-wise and efficient to find the activated device. Other than that, I discourage mixing device types on the same zone.

If the supervising station wants to know which device has activated, the installer will either need to separate the zones by device type and location or hard sell an addressable system to the customer. Selling an addressable system would be the better option, in my opinion. This is an opportunity for the customer to upgrade their system, especially if it's an older system or has been installed for two or three decades.

I have a site where I just conducted a system analysis for full replacement, except notification appliances. Everything is upgrading, to include all 5 power supplies. We sold it to the customer as I previously stated.

 

[gadfly56]

Great question. Unfortunately, monitor modules will not be able to differentiate device type. The contact side of the monitor module is only looking for its supervisory (closed circuit) voltage facilitated by its end-of-line resistor. That's all it does: supervise wiring and electrical contacts on the devices.

On a side note, it befuddles me why installers mix zones with different types of initiating devices UNLESS it's a small setting. Say I have a daycare and a conventional fire alarm system. I would design such that each classroom is on its own zone. Typically, there is one or two detectors and one pull station. In that situation, device mixing on the same zone is fine because zone coverage is restricted to a small area; therefore, it's still time-wise and efficient to find the activated device. Other than that, I discourage mixing device types on the same zone.

If the supervising station wants to know which device has activated, the installer will either need to separate the zones by device type and location or hard sell an addressable system to the customer. Selling an addressable system would be the better option, in my opinion. This is an opportunity for the customer to upgrade their system, especially if it's an older system or has been installed for two or three decades.

I have a site where I just conducted a system analysis for full replacement, except notification appliances. Everything is upgrading, to include all 5 power supplies. We sold it to the customer as I previously stated.

If you would like to separate device types on separate zones, how many are you planning on? You have smoke detectors, pull stations, heat detectors, duct detectors, tampers, and waterflows, just to name the most common. You're not supposed to put multiple floors on the same zone, so we're looking at 6 zones per floor, easy. What's the largest conventional panel you can buy these days? The largest conventional panel you can buy these days is 10 zones. I hope your facility is a single floor, not to mention the horrendous cost of labor to install all those home runs.