Interesting question

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dwellselectric

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Okay so I'm in the middle of a remodel and I was asked a question that well I found very interesting and couldn't find an answer in the code book. Perhaps you guys can help me out with it. Well the house was rewired in the 60's i'd say all romex with reduced grounds. Had to add a few new plugs upstairs and know that we have to run a new feed for the plugs since we are adding some and can't add to the violation already there we have to run freash feeds. Well the guy I work with was like well what if we reuse some of the wire that was there? I mean I wouldn't do it but just curious wouuld that fly or would we still have to run a new feed? Once again we are not doing that I was just curious what your answers would be?
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
You would be installing the wire. You would be in violation of 250.122 IMO.
 
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ultramegabob

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
if it was existing and where you needed it, I dont see a problem with it unless your contract specifically said you were replacing "all" the wire. you might want to megger it just for good measure also.


edit- I thought you meant you wanted to leave it were it was to reuse it
 
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dwellselectric

Inactive, Email Never Verified
ultramegabob said:
if it was existing and where you needed it, I dont see a problem with it unless your contract specifically said you were replacing "all" the wire. you might want to megger it just for good measure also.


edit- I thought you meant you wanted to leave it were it was to reuse it

Oh we are not going to reuse the wire I was just curious what your input was on the question that was asked to me.
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
ultramegabob said:
if it was existing and where you needed it, I dont see a problem with it unless your contract specifically said you were replacing "all" the wire. you might want to megger it just for good measure also.


edit- I thought you meant you wanted to leave it were it was to reuse it
Yet another EC addicted to megging
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
This is an interesting question if the feed was new would it be code compliant to tie the existing preexisting nonconforming wire into the new feed??
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
quogueelectric said:
This is an interesting question if the feed was new would it be code compliant to tie the existing preexisting nonconforming wire into the new feed??
If it wasn't, you'd hardly ever be able to do a panel change or service upgrade without rewiring the house. You've gotta draw a line someplace. Can't make the whole place brand new.
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
mdshunk said:
If it wasn't, you'd hardly ever be able to do a panel change or service upgrade without rewiring the house. You've gotta draw a line someplace. Can't make the whole place brand new.
Yes I know a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do but I just threw that out there fishing for code problems I dont even know exist yet. I am preping for intense codeology training combined with other courses which werent as inportant at the time as the osha safety stuff. coming to a theatre near me in the fall. LOTS of variables on my horizon and its all good. The original question for me is if you disturb the preixisting nonconforming is it technically legal to say split an existing overloaded ckt by pulling a new feed to the midpoint and spliting it does it need to be brought up to current code where is the fine line EXACTLY how far can you go??
 
NYS has provided the inspectors and the installers with a method for working with older code compliant installations that were compliant the day they were installed, and new work is now being installed.
It is Appendix J for residential work and the Existing Building Code for other work.

The guidelines set forth are somewhat detailed and a little complex. Once an installer is aware of the requirements, and discusses them with the building official, it will be more clear as to what can and cannot be done.



Hows that for a clear answer? ;)
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
dSilanskas said:
Okay so I'm in the middle of a remodel and I was asked a question that well I found very interesting and couldn't find an answer in the code book. Perhaps you guys can help me out with it. Well the house was rewired in the 60's i'd say all romex with reduced grounds. Had to add a few new plugs upstairs and know that we have to run a new feed for the plugs since we are adding some and can't add to the violation already there we have to run freash feeds.

"rewired in the 60's i'd say all romex with reduced grounds"
"can't add to the violation already there"
Which is it ?
Is there already a violation or was it installed correctly in the 60's ?

If it was installed correctly in the 60's, then it isn't a violation today as long as it stays outside of your scope of work.

If you were trying to power a new circuit from an improperly grounded panel, the new circuit would also not be properly protected/grounded and the violation would spread into the new scope of work. . The violation would be incorrect grounding of the new circuit and you would need to either expand your scope of work and correct the panel grounding or find another source of power for your new circuit.

Adding plugs to an existing reduced size ground wire circuit would not cause your new work to be improperly grounded. . So no violation there. . The reduced ground in the existing isn't an issue either. . If the reduced grounds were sufficient to handle the overcurrent when originally installed, I don't see that as an issue either.

dSilanskas said:
Well the guy I work with was like well what if we reuse some of the wire that was there? I mean I wouldn't do it but just curious wouuld that fly or would we still have to run a new feed? Once again we are not doing that I was just curious what your answers would be?

"what if we reuse some of the wire that was there?"

What do you mean by reuse ? . Do you mean that you're going to just leave it there and resupply it with a new HR or you're going to physically move the reduced ground Romex and reroute it ?

If you leave it and resupply power, I would consider it as remaining outside of the scope of work. . If you're going to move it, then the reduced ground is within the scope of work, is not compliant, and would have to be replaced.

This is similar to knob and tub stuff that I see quite often. . Any undisturbed sections can remain. . But knob and tub doesn't have grounding so any extension has to follow 250.130(C) or the extension contains a violation. . The knob and tub isn't a violation. . It was compliant at the time it was installed. . Any new would be the violation.
 

electricalperson

Senior Member
Location
massachusetts
dSilanskas said:
Okay so I'm in the middle of a remodel and I was asked a question that well I found very interesting and couldn't find an answer in the code book. Perhaps you guys can help me out with it. Well the house was rewired in the 60's i'd say all romex with reduced grounds. Had to add a few new plugs upstairs and know that we have to run a new feed for the plugs since we are adding some and can't add to the violation already there we have to run freash feeds. Well the guy I work with was like well what if we reuse some of the wire that was there? I mean I wouldn't do it but just curious wouuld that fly or would we still have to run a new feed? Once again we are not doing that I was just curious what your answers would be?
well since you live in MA, my first guess would be rule 3 of the MA code. rule 3 states:

Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with the code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this code. the installation shall not create a violation of this code nor shall it increse the magnitude of an existing violation.

i would assume that you dont have to replace the wiring according to that rule. but in reality i would replace all wiring with new romex. the wiring has reached the end of its life :grin:
 
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