Is 250.53 (A)(1) Silly?

[dereckbc]

Is it just me or this the most poorly thought out and worded 250 requirement?

250.53 A 1
Below Permanent Moisture Level.

If practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes
shall be embedded below permanent moisture level.
Rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be free from
nonconductive coatings such as paint or enamel.

At first glance you might think it is black and white clear. Many years ago I thought at first it means the rod or pipe needs to be completely buried into moist soil, or even blow the frost line if any. But then one starts to think about places like Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and other like areas where there is no soil moisture and might not even really be soil like Lost Wages NV that is more or less gravel and granite rubble. What condition would have to be met as to not fully bury the rod if practical. If Practical & Shall Be do not jive. Couldn't I just use a 10 foot rod and leave a foot sticking up and damn the torpedoes?

The way out of it in my opinion is not to use rod or pipes if conditions cannot be met, but that can get expensive and time consuming.

Guess i am getting nick picky in my ole age. What are your two-cents worth?

 

[iwire]

You absolutely have to do it, unless you can't, or don't want to.


Like much of 250 it is not worded well.

 

[GoldDigger]

My one cent worth ( marked down from two) is that it all hinges on the AHJ's interpretation of if practicable.
It does not mean if you feel like it, nor does it mean even if it costs $5000 to have a 100 foot well pipe driven.
Instead the line is somewhere in between and every inspector is sure to know exactly where his or her copy of that line is.
I do not see the section as self contradictory, just vague with no good hope for making it more precise.
I do like your solution of avoiding the issue whenever that is practicable. :angel:

Tapatalk!

 

[infinity]

Where is the phrase below permanent moisture level defined anyway?

 

[dereckbc]

I do like your solution of avoiding the issue whenever that is practicable.

Well then the question becomes: When are rods and pipes required?

My gut answer is never with today's construction techniques. CCE, Water Pipe and call it done. Me thinks rod and pipe systems are just old habits hard to break. On the line as "That is the way we always have done it", No wI know there are a lot of variables that economics dictate rods to be used.

 

[dereckbc]

Where is the phrase below permanent moisture level defined anyway?

That is my point. How deep is that in Phoenix? Is it just below the frost line? :huh:

My personal thought: Shall be below grade. That is easy to understand and enforce.

 

[GoldDigger]

Well then the question becomes: When are rods and pipes required?

My gut answer is never with today's construction techniques. CCE, Water Pipe and call it done. Me thinks rod and pipe systems are just old habits hard to break. On the line as "That is the way we always have done it", No wI know there are a lot of variables that economics dictate rods to be used.

For new concrete with footings and not just a slab, it certainly makes sense.
Sometimes for old work (first electrical or upgrade requiring code)
or outbuildings that is not an option.

Tapatalk!

 

[charlie b]

You absolutely have to do it, unless you can't

Actually, this part of your little joke is very close to the truth. Here is what my dictionary has to say on the subject:

Practicable, practical often cause confusion. Practicable means possible or feasible, able to be done, capable of being put into practice or of being used. Practical (applied to things, as opposed to applied to people) means efficient and workable.

So if it is possible to get the electrode below the permanent moisture level, you have to do it. In places that have no permanent moisture level, this is not "capable of being put into practice." It would not be practicable in Lost Wages NV, and so therefore it is not required.

 

[kwired]

For new concrete with footings and not just a slab, it certainly makes sense.
Sometimes for old work (first electrical or upgrade requiring code)
or outbuildings that is not an option.

Tapatalk!

If your footings contain steel reinforcement over 1/2 inch diameter, you have no choice - you must use the CEE that is "already there". Exception is for existing construction, new construction you must use it if it exists, even if the footing contractor did not let you know ahead of time and you were not there to connect to the rebar, NEC does not have any wording to exempt that rebar from being used as a CEE. Some jurisdictions may be lenient in those cases, others are not.

If they do not contain qualifying reinforcement you do not have to use the CEE electrode option, but unless the building codes or others object for some reason you are certainly welcome to put in at least 20 feet of qualifying reinforcement or 20 feet of 4AWG copper and make a CEE that was not otherwise available. It will almost always be a better electrode then use of a ground rod - or even two ground rods.

 

[dereckbc]

Here is what my dictionary has to say on the subject:

Charlie I am certain I speak for 90% of the country. Who is the Dictionary and how do I find him? Is that Obama?

 

[kwired]

Charlie I am certain I speak for 90% of the country. Who is the Dictionary and how do I find him? Is that Obama?

I thought Dictionary was my wife - she knows everything, if I don't think I agree it is still in my best interest to go with what she says:happyyes: