Is a light fixture considered an outlet?

[dcooper]

Looking at the Arc rules it states outlets. But it only really refers to outlet boxes in reference to receptacles.
Thoughts…..

 

[augie47]

Art 100 can be your friend......

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts designed to position the light source and connect it to the power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light source or the ballast or to distribute the light. A lampholder itself is not a luminaire.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is a lighting outlet so yes it is an outlet

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken
to supply utilization equipment.

Gus is getting faster in his old age.. He beat me...lol

 

[LarryFine]

The light fixture is not the outlet, the ceiling or wall box is.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In my opinion, the outlet for all hard wired utilization equipment is the point where the branch circuit conductors connect to the equipment conductors.

 

[augie47]

In my opinion, the outlet for all hard wired utilization equipment is the point where the branch circuit conductors connect to the equipment conductors.

That would be a great Code proposal !

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Public Input No. 174-NFPA 70-2023 [ Definition: Outlet. ]
Outlet.
The point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle, lampholder terminals or conductors, luminaire terminals or conductors, or utilization equipment terminals or conductors. (CMP-1)

Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Input
With the addition of 210.8(F) to the code, it seems that a number of code users no longer understand what an outlet is. One code instructor and author is teaching that there is no requirement to provide GFCI protection for an outside air conditioner because it is not connected to an outlet. This PI is intended to make it clear that any and all electrical equipment that actually functions is connected to an outlet.

 

[ptonsparky]

So the connected equipment that does not function is not connected to an outlet?

 

[jap]

So the connected equipment that does not function is not connected to an outlet?

No it's not because by the definition of an outlet, if it's not functioning its probably not drawing current.

Jap>

 

[wwhitney]

That would be a great Code proposal !

The current definition basically implies that already, in that the branch circuit conductors are part of the (premises) wiring system, and the equipment conductors are part of the utilization equipment, so the connection between the two is the point at which current is taken from one to the other.

But Don's proposal spells that out more clearly, with some slight changes.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

Public Input No. 174-NFPA 70-2023 [ Definition: Outlet. ]
Outlet.
The point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle, lampholder terminals or conductors, luminaire terminals or conductors, or utilization equipment terminals or conductors. (CMP-1)

So I think your proposal reflects a slight change from the status quo as far as outlet location.

I would say that current is either in the premises wiring or in the utilization equipment, and it just transitions once, at the outlet. In which case is the receptacle/keyless itself part of the premises wiring or part of the utilization equipment? I would say part of the premises wiring.

Thus at present the outlet is the point of contact between the wipers of a receptacle and the pins of a plug, or between the Edison socket and the bulb. Your PI moves the outlet to be the wiring terminals of the receptacle or the keyless.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mtnelect]

In my inspection reports, when a contractor fails to follow the plans, showing a symbol for an electrical ceiling lighting outlet. I would say:
"The contractor failed to install a ceiling lighting outlet". No fixture, just an outlet.
Is this the correct contexts ?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So I think your proposal reflects a slight change from the status quo as far as outlet location.

I would say that current is either in the premises wiring or in the utilization equipment, and it just transitions once, at the outlet. In which case is the receptacle/keyless itself part of the premises wiring or part of the utilization equipment? I would say part of the premises wiring.

Thus at present the outlet is the point of contact between the wipers of a receptacle and the pins of a plug, or between the Edison socket and the bulb. Your PI moves the outlet to be the wiring terminals of the receptacle or the keyless.

Cheers, Wayne

I don't think so. Both receptacle outlets and lighting outlets have there own definition saying that they are installed at "generic" outlets.

Receptacle Outlet.
An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed. (CMP-18)
Lighting Outlet.
An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire. (CMP-18)

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[wwhitney]

I don't think so. Both receptacle outlets and lighting outlets have there own definition saying that they are installed at "generic" outlets.

I don't find the definitions you quoted to be in contradiction with what I've stated, I'm not sure what you are seeing in them.

Let's make it simple: is a receptacle part of the premises wiring system?

If so, I say that the current definitions pinpoints the outlet to a particular connection, in this case the connection of the attachment plug (part of the utilization equipment) to the receptacle (part of the premises wiring system).

If not, then how do you categorize the receptacle? Neither premises wiring nor utilization equipment? That's certainly consistent with all the definitions quoted so far in this thread, but breaks the nice dichotomy that all of the circuit is one or the other.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[roger]

In my inspection reports, when a contractor fails to follow the plans, showing a symbol for an electrical ceiling lighting outlet. I would say:
"The contractor failed to install a ceiling lighting outlet". No fixture, just an outlet.
Is this the correct contexts ?

I agree. The NEC does not require a fixture (in most cases) just a lighting outlet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't find the definitions you quoted to be in contradiction with what I've stated, I'm not sure what you are seeing in them.

Let's make it simple: is a receptacle part of the premises wiring system?

If so, I say that the current definitions pinpoints the outlet to a particular connection, in this case the connection of the attachment plug (part of the utilization equipment) to the receptacle (part of the premises wiring system).

If not, then how do you categorize the receptacle? Neither premises wiring nor utilization equipment? That's certainly consistent with all the definitions quoted so far in this thread, but breaks the nice dichotomy that all of the circuit is one or the other.

Cheers, Wayne

I am simply saying those items are installed at outlets.

Receptacle.
A contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug, or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact device. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke or strap. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke or strap. (CMP-18)

Based on that definition, a receptacle is not really an outlet....just installed at one, so yes a receptacle is neither premises wiring nor utilization equipment.

Probably both lighting outlet and receptacle outlet should go away, but they can't because there are code rules that require the installation of both of those specific type of outlets.

 

[wwhitney]

I am simply saying those items are installed at outlets.

OK, to me, the definition says an outlet is a point (more properly a surface, a particular connection between two conductors), implicityly with multiplicity (since you need multiple conductors to form a surface). And so "at" a point just means touching that point.

So those definitions saying "at" an outlet are consistent with a receptacle or keyless lamp holder being part of the premises wiring system. I.e. I put the outlet at the utilization equipment side boundary of the receptacle or keyless lamp holder, not at the supply-side boundary of the device.

This interpretation is informed by the definition of Premises Wiring System, which includes wiring devices, which includes receptacles. So the receptacle itself has to be part of the Premises Wiring System.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

OK, to me, the definition says an outlet is a point (more properly a surface, a particular connection between two conductors), implicityly with multiplicity (since you need multiple conductors to form a surface). And so "at" a point just means touching that point.

So those definitions saying "at" an outlet are consistent with a receptacle or keyless lamp holder being part of the premises wiring system. I.e. I put the outlet at the utilization equipment side boundary of the receptacle or keyless lamp holder, not at the supply-side boundary of the device.

This interpretation is informed by the definition of Premises Wiring System, which includes wiring devices, which includes receptacles. So the receptacle itself has to be part of the Premises Wiring System.

Cheers, Wayne

once again we reach an impasse

 

[mtnelect]

once again we reach an impasse

No ... it was "Resolved"