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Is a lock required ?

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Davebones

Senior Member
We have a disconnect ( 30 amp ) that feeds a small motor starter in a separate enclosure just below the disconnect . It has a indicator lamp to show when the motor is running . If a maintenance person is giving a WR to replace the indicator lamp or work on the start / stop control is a lock required on the disconnect just above it ???
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We have a disconnect ( 30 amp ) that feeds a small motor starter in a separate enclosure just below the disconnect . It has a indicator lamp to show when the motor is running . If a maintenance person is giving a WR to replace the indicator lamp or work on the start / stop control is a lock required on the disconnect just above it ???

Probably but no doubt someone will come up with a highly unusual situation where it isn't. Does the disconnect switch remove control power to the lights or pushbuttons?
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
We have a disconnect ( 30 amp ) that feeds a small motor starter in a separate enclosure just below the disconnect . It has a indicator lamp to show when the motor is running . If a maintenance person is giving a WR to replace the indicator lamp or work on the start / stop control is a lock required on the disconnect just above it ???
I would. Whether or nor regulations required it.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Does the disconnect have anything to do with the control power that serves the pilot light? I expect not, and if that is the case there is no reason to lock out or even turn that disconnect off. The power source needs to be locked out, and that would normally be at the motor starter and not at the motor itself.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Does the disconnect have anything to do with the control power that serves the pilot light? I expect not, and if that is the case there is no reason to lock out or even turn that disconnect off. The power source needs to be locked out, and that would normally be at the motor starter and not at the motor itself.

The way I read the OP the disconnect is feeding the controller but as you've stated that doesn't necessarily mean that it disconnects the control power.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The way I read the OP the disconnect is feeding the controller but as you've stated that doesn't necessarily mean that it disconnects the control power.

which is why I asked if it did.

I reread the OP and I came to the conclusion that he likely meant the light (and control devices) are mounted in the starter but he could have meant they are mounted in the disconnect.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
IMO the lock is optional since the disconnect is within sight.

The NEC may not require a lock but I think the OP was referring to whether it had to have a lock on it for LOTO purposes. I don't think there are any OSHA exceptions to the LOTO requirements for such a case like there are for plug and cord connections.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
We have a disconnect ( 30 amp ) that feeds a small motor starter in a separate enclosure just below the disconnect . It has a indicator lamp to show when the motor is running . If a maintenance person is giving a WR to replace the indicator lamp or work on the start / stop control is a lock required on the disconnect just above it ???

As noted by others, you are missing some key details here. But if we make the assumption that the Pilot devices are in the cover of the motor starter (as per usual), there are still two more levels of your question:
... to replace the indicator lamp". If by that, you mean the bulb only, that depends on the style of indicators involved. Many can be replaced by unscrewing the lens from the outside and swapping out the bulb, never exposing the worker to line voltage potential. Those would be fine without locking out the disconnect.

If they have the type that requires access to the back side of the pilot light to be able to change it, and/or they are going to "...work on the start / stop control .."which also means removing the starter cover, then they will be exposed to line voltage potential as well as whatever Arc Flash energy exists in the starter box if the disconnect is not open BEFORE the starter is opened. So for sure that will require the disconnect to be off, or for the electrician to suit up in the appropriate PPE and likely obtain a "Hot Work Permit" through whatever safety process the employer or owner has in place. If there is no process in place, that alone is an OSHA violation, potentially criminal for the managers/supervisors!

If what you meant was "the disconnect will be opened, but must he LOCK it open (LO/TO)?", that's not as clear given that they will be performing work right there. The problem with NOT locking it is that it then opens the issue for the electricians to "interpret" the rules; "Sometimes we lock it, sometimes we don't..." Having a procedure stating that the disconnect must ALWAYS be locked when working on something powered by electricity leads to people staying in the habit of it and working safely. That's a better plan in my opinion.
 

Davebones

Senior Member
The disconnect shuts off " All Power " to the starter cabinet just below it . One of the tech's brought this up . The question was asked if if the disconnect is right there , you can see it is off , you won't be walking away and leaving this and the repair will take just a few minutes . Does OHSA require a lock be used ???
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Yes , you would be opening the controller cabinet to make a repair . It's just a 30 amp disconnect above a small controller 14" x 14" controller cabinet . Was asked what if you wanted to check the fuses inside controller cabinet that feed the control transformer does this mean you have to lock out the disconnect above it before you open the cabinet ?
 

wbdvt

Senior Member
Location
Rutland, VT, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
additionally since you are opening the controller cabinet, you need to wear the appropriate arc rated PPE for the incident energy level at the controller. Since the incoming feeds were not tested dead at the disconnect, you have assume it is energized until proven otherwise by testing. Once proven dead the hazard has been eliminated and the PPE for that hazard is no longer required.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
The disconnect shuts off " All Power " to the starter cabinet just below it . One of the tech's brought this up . The question was asked if if the disconnect is right there , you can see it is off , you won't be walking away and leaving this and the repair will take just a few minutes . Does OHSA require a lock be used ???
You have removed the source of energy so it is safe to work on. But the next question is what is your safety policy regarding locking out? Some cases they want it locked even if the isolation device is within sight of what you are working on.
 

just the cowboy

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
newburgh,ny
LOTO

LOTO

When I was on the LOTO team for a large company it was " line of site AND in arms reach" did not have to be locked out. BUT to meet them you could not work on a control panel because you then lost the line of site part when you looked down. All my electricians locked it out every time, ( some times did not lock the lock just put it on if it was line of site) because we would of blew our top if they reached over us to turn it on.
 

wbdvt

Senior Member
Location
Rutland, VT, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
You have removed the source of energy so it is safe to work on. But the next question is what is your safety policy regarding locking out? Some cases they want it locked even if the isolation device is within sight of what you are working on.

Without testing one cannot be 100% sure that the source of energy has been removed. Testing is usually part of a LOTO program and the equipment must be considered energized until tested and proper PPE worn while testing dead.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I don't see why a lock would be required when there are instances where an within sight disconnect does not even require a locking means.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Without testing one cannot be 100% sure that the source of energy has been removed. Testing is usually part of a LOTO program and the equipment must be considered energized until tested and proper PPE worn while testing dead.
Yes, but that applies whether there is line of sight or not and/or a lock is being applied or not.
 
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