ive had the opportunity to come across a panel schedule that shows only 2 hots and 1 ground deemed necessary for the wiring of a range.. Thats news to me, having been in the trade for 30 + years ,ive never seen this yet.my project manager states that he has pulled ranges before wth no nuet. also tries to say that "in the old days" he pulled triplex wire with an uninsulated nuet.,that went to the old 3 wire receptacles. any idea if its stated in the NEC ,wether its needed or not? article 220 doesnt clear it up to well..
is a neutral required in a range outlet ?
- Thread starter oldschool
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It won't be a receptacle that requires a neutral, but the range itself that will or will not require it.
If the range has two voltages listed on the label (such as 120/240), then a neutral is required. If it has only one voltage (240), then a noodle isn't needed.
If the range has two voltages listed on the label (such as 120/240), then a neutral is required. If it has only one voltage (240), then a noodle isn't needed.
kbsparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Delmarva, USA
FYI the old style 3-wire range outlet (NEMA 10-50R) does have a neutral terminal --- what it is lacking is a ground. Officially called a non-grounded device.
The "grounding" occurs in the range itself, with the bonding strap that connects the neutral terminal to the metal frame of the appliance.
However, many cooktops which do not have a clock, timer, or oven light do not require a neutral and operate exclusively on 240 Volts for the surface elements.
The "grounding" occurs in the range itself, with the bonding strap that connects the neutral terminal to the metal frame of the appliance.
However, many cooktops which do not have a clock, timer, or oven light do not require a neutral and operate exclusively on 240 Volts for the surface elements.
RJohnsonMasterElectrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Right now ??, previously VT
Well 250.140 has a couple exceptions that could possibly make you pull a 4 wire to the appliance if I am understanding the exceptions.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
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- Electrical Contractor
This is the proper section that should be followed for existing installations only. Any new installation will require a 4-wire feed. For some reason, when appliance manufacturers decided to provide digital displays on appliances, they used a 120 volt circuit to power the display and thus the need for a neutral. If they had made the decision to install a xfmr to re-manufacture an operating voltage to say 24vac to operate the display you wouldn't need the neurtal.
Another thing that should be noted is that these appliances are shipped with a ground strap bonded to the neutral (as kbsparky previously mentioned). This strap should be left in place only when you have an existing installation meeting the requirements in section 250.140. Otherwise, if you have a 4-wire installation this strap should be removed and the cord and plug attached accordingly.
Thanks
Thanks
i understand that its the range ,not the recetacle that requires the neut.,.and as stated, i know its for the clock,light etc..,
my main question is,, where is it stated that 4 wires are required, in the NEC..? i can find not one reference point, i know when looking at receptacle configurations, they show 4 wire. still without a reference point though!..any thoughts?
:-?
Thanks
i understand that its the range ,not the recetacle that requires the neut.,.and as stated, i know its for the clock,light etc..,
my main question is,, where is it stated that 4 wires are required, in the NEC..? i can find not one reference point, i know when looking at receptacle configurations, they show 4 wire. still without a reference point though!..any thoughts?
:-?
I think the basic rule would be 250.24(A)(5)
(250.142(B) also addresses the particular issue)
If you have a 240V only cooktop or range, I don't think you have to run a neutral. You must have a separate equipment ground for a new circuit, but only need the grounded/ungrounded conductors required by the intended appliance.
Even though code doesn't require a neutral, and there are cooktops and ovens that don't require a neutral, you should really put one in. Someone in the future will be pissed when they pick a new range that needs a neutral and you didn't put one in the circuit. Now its a few more hundred to run a new circuit and put in a "normal" range receptacle.
Even though code doesn't require a neutral, and there are cooktops and ovens that don't require a neutral, you should really put one in. Someone in the future will be pissed when they pick a new range that needs a neutral and you didn't put one in the circuit. Now its a few more hundred to run a new circuit and put in a "normal" range receptacle.
SG-1
Senior Member
- Location
- Ware Shoals, South Carolina
Augie has nailed the NEC references for ranges & they do not mention any receptacle. I do not know any NEC requirement ( code reference ) that requires a grounded conductor on any recepticle, or an ungrounded conductor for that matter. 406.3(A) & (B) requires an EGC, but no ungrounded conductor (HOT) or grounded conductor(Neutral).
IMO if the recepticle has a terminal on it and it is not wired, then the installation is not complete or an incorrect recepticle has been used.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
So, where can we find one of those EGC-only receptacles? :grin:
SG-1
Senior Member
- Location
- Ware Shoals, South Carolina
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Gus (augie47) is correct. 250.142(B) Load Side Equipment states " Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1)and 250.32(B) a grounded conductor shall not be used for grounding non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment........... Exception # 1....existing installations under section 250.140
While the NEC may not often spell out or directly state that a 4 wire must be run for an appliance, you have to look at what has not been stated or implied. Logic dictates that if you can't use a grounded conductor to ground an appliance then you must use an equipment grounding conductor. By the same token, if an appliance requires a neutral you can't use the equipment grounding conductor in place of the neutral.
There have been many opinions stated here as to whether or not 4 wire circuits are required for appliances. You have to bear in mind that while we all believe "A man's home is his castle" that doesn't mean that you can wire your house to your liking. At some point in time you'll sell that house and then it will become someone elses castle and one that has not been wired to code. The NEC provides a means to insure that houses built are wired to current code specs.
Another thing that was mentioned in this thread is whether or not a receptacle is required. If an appliance is fixed in place like a dishwasher or double wall oven a receptacle is not required but a breaker lock-out is. If an appliance is movable like a range/oven then a local disconnect means is required. Personally speaking, I'd rather use a cord/plug/receptacle configuration behind the range than an A/C disconnect.
250.140 Exception (3)
250.140 Exception (3)
Just to add my 2 euros to this topic.
On a 5 unit multi family apartment complex that needed a service change, I noticed all the meters were not grouped in one location. When asked the inspector said they would have to be grouped and the range circuits replaced. The inspector cited 250.140 Exception (3) and would not allow the bare wire in SE cable in a subpanel to be used as a neutral. I bid based on converting the electric ranges to 4 wire. Each old service panel location had to become a feeder panel.
It would have been 2 men about a 1/2 day per range to replace the SE cable with the uninsulated neutrals including attic crawling and drywalll patching.
Another contractor kept the SE cable, connected the bare wire to the equipment gnd bar, replaced the 10-50 receptacles with 6-50's and had the landlord buy 240V ranges. One of the tenants even asked me to fix her broken oven element when I did a walk through. Someone else thought of that and she got a new range.
I have since seen a 240V range come with a 6-50 in a new installation. I thought how funny they put the wrong cord on it! I looked inside and it had a black a red and a yellow with green stripe. I looked at the wiring diagram and the name plate "230V" not 120/240.
I then pulled out the oven bulb it said "230V 50/60hz". Since I piped it in I pulled in 2 #8's and a 10 green, if someone wants a neutral later they can pull out the 10 green. Now I have been getting landlords to use 230V ranges on similar service changes with SE cable on a feeder panel.
I think a NEMA 6-50 receptacle is a new standard for electric ranges if it is not it should be.
I think the manufacturers instructions of this range said you could install a 10-50 pigtail or a 6-50 but not a 14-50 4 wire.
The cost of the ranges was about $300 each versus a 8hr of electrical work plus parts ($750).
No surface heating elements in a range use the neutral as of when? Just to be sure I ammetered several 4 wire ranges recently, to find that all are using infinite switching these days. The only current on the white is the clock, oven light and indicator lights.
Just think of how much copper is being wasted all over the USA? Running a 8awg copper wire to power a clock and a light? How much does 50' of #8 copper weigh? how many new range circuits are pulled in in a year? What a waste.
I have seen 240V clock/timers and lights so range mfr's need to get with it and drop the neutral.
Here is a link to the 240V range: http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/ER2001G.html
250.140 Exception (3)
Just to add my 2 euros to this topic.
On a 5 unit multi family apartment complex that needed a service change, I noticed all the meters were not grouped in one location. When asked the inspector said they would have to be grouped and the range circuits replaced. The inspector cited 250.140 Exception (3) and would not allow the bare wire in SE cable in a subpanel to be used as a neutral. I bid based on converting the electric ranges to 4 wire. Each old service panel location had to become a feeder panel.
It would have been 2 men about a 1/2 day per range to replace the SE cable with the uninsulated neutrals including attic crawling and drywalll patching.
Another contractor kept the SE cable, connected the bare wire to the equipment gnd bar, replaced the 10-50 receptacles with 6-50's and had the landlord buy 240V ranges. One of the tenants even asked me to fix her broken oven element when I did a walk through. Someone else thought of that and she got a new range.
I have since seen a 240V range come with a 6-50 in a new installation. I thought how funny they put the wrong cord on it! I looked inside and it had a black a red and a yellow with green stripe. I looked at the wiring diagram and the name plate "230V" not 120/240.
I then pulled out the oven bulb it said "230V 50/60hz". Since I piped it in I pulled in 2 #8's and a 10 green, if someone wants a neutral later they can pull out the 10 green. Now I have been getting landlords to use 230V ranges on similar service changes with SE cable on a feeder panel.
I think a NEMA 6-50 receptacle is a new standard for electric ranges if it is not it should be.
I think the manufacturers instructions of this range said you could install a 10-50 pigtail or a 6-50 but not a 14-50 4 wire.
The cost of the ranges was about $300 each versus a 8hr of electrical work plus parts ($750).
No surface heating elements in a range use the neutral as of when? Just to be sure I ammetered several 4 wire ranges recently, to find that all are using infinite switching these days. The only current on the white is the clock, oven light and indicator lights.
Just think of how much copper is being wasted all over the USA? Running a 8awg copper wire to power a clock and a light? How much does 50' of #8 copper weigh? how many new range circuits are pulled in in a year? What a waste.
I have seen 240V clock/timers and lights so range mfr's need to get with it and drop the neutral.
Here is a link to the 240V range: http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/ER2001G.html
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The last cooktops I'm sure used the neutral for heating was the GE units with 7 or 8 buttons per burner, each of which was made up of two different-wattage elements, which receiced various combinations of 120 and 240v.
The ones with rotary knobs have little thermostatic heat elements and bi-metallic switches inside the control housing, and the single cooking element merely slave-switches on and off with the control's internal element.
- Location
- Massachusetts
The NEC does not require or imply that a neutral be brought to any appliance that does not require a neutral.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Where do you get this requirement? The requirement of separate equipment ground and grounded circuit conductor and the exceptions apply to all occupancies.
Gus (augie47) is correct. 250.142(B) Load Side Equipment states " Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1)and 250.32(B) a grounded conductor shall not be used for grounding non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment........... Exception # 1....existing installations under section 250.140
While the NEC may not often spell out or directly state that a 4 wire must be run for an appliance, you have to look at what has not been stated or implied. Logic dictates that if you can't use a grounded conductor to ground an appliance then you must use an equipment grounding conductor. By the same token, if an appliance requires a neutral you can't use the equipment grounding conductor in place of the neutral.
There have been many opinions stated here as to whether or not 4 wire circuits are required for appliances. You have to bear in mind that while we all believe "A man's home is his castle" that doesn't mean that you can wire your house to your liking. At some point in time you'll sell that house and then it will become someone elses castle and one that has not been wired to code. The NEC provides a means to insure that houses built are wired to current code specs.
Another thing that was mentioned in this thread is whether or not a receptacle is required. If an appliance is fixed in place like a dishwasher or double wall oven a receptacle is not required but a breaker lock-out is. If an appliance is movable like a range/oven then a local disconnect means is required. Personally speaking, I'd rather use a cord/plug/receptacle configuration behind the range than an A/C disconnect.
You have all missed the OP's question, it was not if you can use the neutral to ground the appliance it was if the appliance does not require a neutral do you have to install one.
You answered the OP's question.
instead of using a 14-50 receptacle use a 6-50 receptacle. The 3 wire non grounding is a 10-50.
I have not been seriously looking into this but:
Looks like about 656,000 homes were completed in March in the USA.
67% of homes use electric ranges.
656,000 * .67 = 439,520 new homes have a #8 neutral run to a 14-50 receptacle.
What is the average range run 40 feet?
Thats 439,520 runs * 40 feet = 17,580,800 Feet of #8 White THHN.
17,580.8 * 50.98LBS (per 1000) = 896,269 LBS of copper (406 540.78 kilograms) for new ranges that do not use the neutral for anything but perhaps a light and a clock.
I would be very surprised if any new ranges used a neutral for actual load current.
An infinite switch seems like the standard.
If i look at the power supply for any new electronic product it is usually multivolt 100-240V, I don't think range electronics should be using 120V for a clock if there is no 120V heating load.
Housing data: http://www.census.gov/const/www/newresconstindex.html
Appliance fuel type data: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/recs2005/hc2005_tables/detailed_tables2005.html
Looks like about 656,000 homes were completed in March in the USA.
67% of homes use electric ranges.
656,000 * .67 = 439,520 new homes have a #8 neutral run to a 14-50 receptacle.
What is the average range run 40 feet?
Thats 439,520 runs * 40 feet = 17,580,800 Feet of #8 White THHN.
17,580.8 * 50.98LBS (per 1000) = 896,269 LBS of copper (406 540.78 kilograms) for new ranges that do not use the neutral for anything but perhaps a light and a clock.
I would be very surprised if any new ranges used a neutral for actual load current.
An infinite switch seems like the standard.
If i look at the power supply for any new electronic product it is usually multivolt 100-240V, I don't think range electronics should be using 120V for a clock if there is no 120V heating load.
Housing data: http://www.census.gov/const/www/newresconstindex.html
Appliance fuel type data: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/recs2005/hc2005_tables/detailed_tables2005.html
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
I suppose you're right but if appliance makers start installing step-down xfmrs in their appliances and re-manufacturing voltages that can operate digital displays then you wouldn't need a 3-wire run. However, any of the newer appliances I've seen of late all have digital displays and all require a neutral.kwired said:
If you're wiring new homes in my area and don't run a 3-wire, you'll fail inspection. I'm guessing the premise is that although the appliance you may be installing in your own home today (in 2010) doesn't require a neutral the appliance you'll be replacing it with when it breaks down will.
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