Is a Pool with bonding and gfci breakers but no grounding consider safe ?

[electt ref]

Hi gentlemen I'm an old retired electrician from Florida who's a little confused , My son recently had a pool built in Texas and on a recent visit I got to inspect the Electrical installation , where I notice the pool motors did not have grounding wires on them. Now I went over my code book and article 680.21 specifies that all permitted wiring methods require an insulated equipment grounding conductor. So my question is simple should this installation be permitted ? I await all responses Thanks Joe.

 

[Little Bill]

Were the pump motors cord & plug or hardwired?

Are you talking about EGC or bond wires?

 

[Fred B]

Are talking about the EP bonding, or an EGC?
If the pool pump is of the double insulated type the EP bonding is not attached to the pump but should somewhere locally be present in event of pump change that is not of the double insulated type.
Not aware of any pool pump that doesn't have an EGC unless someone cut it off. (Red flag)

 

[electt ref]

Are talking about the EP bonding, or an EGC?
If the pool pump is of the double insulated type the EP bonding is not attached to the pump but should somewhere locally be present in event of pump change that is not of the double insulated type.
Not aware of any pool pump that doesn't have an EGC unless someone cut it off. (Red flag)

These pumps are 240 volt hardwired pumps. And no they are not double insulated.

 

[macmikeman]

Ask Mike Holt . I watched him on a video and he said he doesn't consider any electrically connected swimming pools to be safe.

 

[Little Bill]

These pumps are 240 volt hardwired pumps. And no they are not double insulated.

Again, I ask you, are you talking about EGC or bond wires when you say "did not have grounding wires"?

 

[electt ref]

Again, I ask you, are you talking about EGC or bond wires when you say "did not have grounding wires"?

I’m referring to no EGC running to the motors from the sub panel.

 

[Little Bill]

I’m referring to no EGC running to the motors from the sub panel.

Well if the pool equipment install was inspected, the inspector let his donut get in the way when looking at the motors! There has to be an EGC ran to all electrical equipment (other than low voltage LED) for the pool.

 

[suemarkp]

What is the wiring method? If metallic conduit, maybe they counted that. Liquidtight flex metal someone may have considered insulated. But if pvc or LFNC, seems like a huge fail.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

These pumps are 240 volt hardwired pumps. And no they are not double insulated.

I think you are talking about the ground lug on the outside of the pump. That should be connected to the pool bonding... Almost all pumps have the external lug except for double insulated pumps. That bond does not have to go back to the panel it is just there to keep all the pool equipment at the same potential

 

[electt ref]

Yo

Well if the pool equipment install was inspected, the inspector let his donut get in the way when looking at the motors! There has to be an EGC ran to all electrical equipment (other than low voltage LED) for the pool.

I totally agree Bill in all my years in the trade I never heard of not running an EGC to the motor along with the current carrying conductors, specially when they ran flexible non metallic conduit. I am trying to figure out how the people up here in college station Texas can call themselves inspectors.

 

[Jpflex]

I’m referring to no EGC running to the motors from the sub panel.

So how are motors bonded without ground (bonding Coductors)? Are they bonded another way but not attached to a ground electrode conductor (ground rod) therefore not grounded but all metals connected or bonded together?

 

[Fred B]

So how are motors bonded without ground (bonding Coductors)? Are they bonded another way but not attached to a ground electrode conductor (ground rod) therefore not grounded but all metals connected or bonded together?

Need to keep clear the difference between the EGC and EP bonding, not even close to being same.
Without the EGC it is not safe, particularly if the EP bond "is" connected to the motor. The EP cannot and is not able to provide short circuit protection for the motor to clear fault back to panel, and in fact will introduce a hazard potential to the pool in event of a fault.