Is "Kitchen Remodel" an offical term?

[jaylectricity]

I've done a number of "kitchen remodels". Most of the time, the walls are stripped down, some are removed others are put in. I install the rough wiring, make sure there are at least 2 SABCs for the kitchen counters, receptacles properly spaced and ground fault protected, individual circuit for the microwave, lighting, dishwasher/disposal, etc.

But what counts as a kitchen remodel? If the builders were able to replace the cabinets, countertops, and appliances without tearing down the walls and without asking me to move receptacles, add receptacles, add lighting, etc, is it a kitchen remodel? What if all I did was replace the center light? I don't think I even need a permit to replace a light.

Let's say they don't even need me to replace the light, in fact they don't need me at all. They're not even replacing the ceiling mounted range hood. Does the kitchen need to be brought up to code?

But let's say they do need me. They want to add an island, so they want me to fish a wire from one of the gfci's into the basement and up into the island. I'll need a permit for that, and I'll also need to change the breaker to an AFCI. Now do I have to bring the entire kitchen up to code?

If you say yes, I'd like to hear why. But if you think no, how far can we take this? Fishing in just the receptacles to bring the countertops to code? Fishing in recessed lights on a dimmer?

I ask because I feel like just writing "Kitchen Remodel" in the "description of work to be performed" on the permit leaves a lot of unanswered questions, yet it's commonplace.

 

[Coppersmith]

Kitchen remodel is not an official term. Writing that in the description doesn't tell the inspector what to look at and what to (hopefully) ignore. I would say exactly what you are doing such as "extending kitchen GFCI circuit to new island". In my jurisdiction, that would not cause any other part of the kitchen to be brought up to current code. Except maybe if there was only one kitchen circuit. Then you would have to add another so there were two. But that is directly related to what you are doing.

 

[Ponchik]

IMO, definition of a kitchen remodel is defined by your building department and proper building, electrical, plumbing and mechanical codes may or may not apply.

Parts of my jurisdictions, you apply for a kitchen remodel and do electrical upgrade and cabinet and just remove the sink and re-install the same sink you will need a plumbing permit in addition to building and electrical. If you install an exhaust hood you will need a mechanical as well.

 

[jaylectricity]

One inspector in Waltham, MA came to a job where we left the walls up. It was a long time ago, but I think I added some lights and maybe a circuit for the microwave, and replaced the devices. He failed me because there wasn't a receptacle on one part of a counter or something like that. I told him we weren't doing a new kitchen, just adding a few items.

He said, "New appliances, new cabinets, new countertops...looks like a new kitchen to me."

We ended up bringing the kitchen up to code, not sure if we could have fought it.

 

[jaylectricity]

But if the GC pulls the permit and writes, "Remodel kitchen" and I just write, "Replace receptacles, add circuit for microwave" the building inspector might be able to say that my work is fine, but the GC's permit fails because they didn't have the electrician do what was required to remodel the kitchen.

But does remodeling the kitchen mean remodel the entire kitchen? Technically just replacing the countertops is remodeling the kitchen by making it a little different than it was.

I suppose the permit could read, "Replace cabinets and countertops." No need to mention the new appliances. Then my permit would say, "Install wiring for devices, fixtures and equipment. Install devices and fixtures".

 

[goldstar]

The first time I had my kitchen remodeled, from what I remember, all I did was move the sink over 3' and install new cabinets. There was a center light fixture in the room and I changed that to 3 recessed lights over the dinette area. I didn't move aby of the counter receptacles. The township made me take out a plumbing permit, electrical permit and a building permit simply because the kitchen remodel company that I used had to build a soffit. My taxes immediately went up $150.00. When I went down to the tax collector's office and asked why the taxes went up I was told "Well you upgraded your kitchen didn't you ". So, I said that basically all I did was replace the cabinets. If my wife decides tomorrow that she doesn't like the cabinets and I replace them again will my taxes go up again ?

Long story - short, the township wants their "VIG". You can call it whatever you want and they will still find a reason for you to pay for it in some fashion.

 

[growler]

But does remodeling the kitchen mean remodel the entire kitchen? Technically just replacing the countertops is remodeling the kitchen by making it a little different than it was.

Around here you could change the counter tops without a permit. When they sell the house they may call it a kitchen remodel instead of just saying new counter tops.

Around here if you have to open any walls on kitchen remodel they can/will want things brought up to code. But if all you do is change out the cabinets and counter top and replace with like items so that and electrician and plumber is not needed then you really don't need a permit to start with.

 

[growler]

But if the GC pulls the permit and writes, "Remodel kitchen" and I just write, "Replace receptacles, add circuit for microwave" the building inspector might be able to say that my work is fine, but the GC's permit fails because they didn't have the electrician do what was required to remodel the kitchen.

A GC is a licensed professional just like an EC is. I never bid a job as a kitchen remodel, I give a quote to do whatever the GC or homeowner acting as GC wishes to have done and is willing to pay for. All work is listed by item: lights, switches, receptacles, appliances.

It's up to the GC to know what will be required to pass inspection. If they are willing to listen I will give the correct advise on the electrical. Anything not on the original work order or contract is additional and will have an extra charge.

In many areas here a full kitchen remodel may require hard wired smoke detectors for the house (they consider a kitchen remodel to be major work). They GC should know this or not be afraid to ask the AHJ after I inform him/her of this requirement.

 

[kwired]

This is a local AHJ definition at best.

 

[JFletcher]

I've done a number of "kitchen remodels". Most of the time, the walls are stripped down, some are removed others are put in. I install the rough wiring, make sure there are at least 2 SABCs for the kitchen counters, receptacles properly spaced and ground fault protected, individual circuit for the microwave, lighting, dishwasher/disposal, etc.

But what counts as a kitchen remodel? If the builders were able to replace the cabinets, countertops, and appliances without tearing down the walls and without asking me to move receptacles, add receptacles, add lighting, etc, is it a kitchen remodel? What if all I did was replace the center light? I don't think I even need a permit to replace a light.

Let's say they don't even need me to replace the light, in fact they don't need me at all. They're not even replacing the ceiling mounted range hood. Does the kitchen need to be brought up to code?

But let's say they do need me. They want to add an island, so they want me to fish a wire from one of the gfci's into the basement and up into the island. I'll need a permit for that, and I'll also need to change the breaker to an AFCI. Now do I have to bring the entire kitchen up to code?

If you say yes, I'd like to hear why. But if you think no, how far can we take this? Fishing in just the receptacles to bring the countertops to code? Fishing in recessed lights on a dimmer?

I ask because I feel like just writing "Kitchen Remodel" in the "description of work to be performed" on the permit leaves a lot of unanswered questions, yet it's commonplace.

Most remodels I have done are complete, i.e., new countertops and new layout, range moved, permanently mounted microwave added, etc. In those cases the entire kitchen must be brought up to current code.

About the only exceptions I see is if the existing 3 wire range is not being moved, then the existing 3 prong receptacle can stay.

Adding an island only would only require current code compliant wiring for that island - the rest of the kitchen could stay as-is. Adding just recessed lights is not a remodel. Those type of work are virtually non-existent here tho: if the HO is going thru the effort and expense of redoing the kitchen, they usually go all the way. New lights, new switches in different locations, new countertop layout, etc. Pull an electrical permit and bring the entire thing up to current code.

Changing the layout is the biggie imo. If you were to replace all the countertops, cabinets, floors, and appliances, but keep the existing layout, not opening walls, I do not believe upgrading the electrical would be required.

 

[jaylectricity]

So the latest kitchen, I fished in new receptacles, a new dishwasher/disposal circuit, new range hood, new lights with new switches, etc.

What I realized is that they extended the countertop all the way across the wall under the windows so they had a place to sit and eat. So technically, it's a countertop requiring receptacles placed so no place on the wall is more than two feet from a receptacle. The building department finally issued the permit when the job was basically done. I think we had assumed that maybe we weren't even going to bother with it.

So when the permit came through, I wasn't really worried because I had wired everything to code. Well, except now I notice this one small problem. The walls weren't open. The windows aren't new. But I can see an argument for why we should have installed a new receptacle as close to the window as possible, and then maybe another one on the adjacent wall at the other end of the windows. They'd be further than 4' apart, but I think the inspector would be fine with it.

I'll probably get the inspection sometime this week. We'll see how it goes.