Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

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Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

jim: without debating the common sense necessity of making copies available at low cost, or free to view (and pay to copy), there are a few problems with your 11 points.

the "monopoly is illegal" is the point of this response. Where is it given that monopolies are illegal. Pocos are defacto monopolies. they are not illegal. Another: a friend moved to AZ to retire doing home inspections. Arizona gave a monopolistic blanket authority to govern home inspections to one company. ONE company. to qualify for that company you have to do like 200 free inspections, or near free (something like $5 an hour for a year). monopolies are common.

this issue cannot be addressed by over simplified statements.

holding a copyright is not a monopoly.

paul
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

You could write Jim's electrical code and try to have your law makers adopt it
Click to expand...
:D :D
We could all help. :eek: Could you even imagine how many pages of nonsense we would end up with?
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

If I go to my local courthouse and ask for copies of specific laws, say zoning for instance, they will provide me the written text to view on courthouse property or if I wish to have a copy to take with me they will provide it at a cost to me of $1.00 per page. Access to "the Law" in written form is free. Ownership of a published copy costs. All of those lawbooks in my lawyer's office containing state statutes are not provided to him by anybody for free. It's part of his cost of doing business just as owning and studying the current edition of the NEC is my responsibility as an electrical contractor. If I wanted to run to the library every time I needed to look up a code article I could and the access to the NEC would be free. I choose to purchase my own copy for my convenience. By the way, my local library won't allow you to check out the NEC or any of the other building code books. They used to but they were never returned.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

There is an important distinction that has to made there Amptech.

Any charge to the public has to be associated with the cost of reproduction. It can't be admitted that a profity has been generated.

I said admitted on purpose.

[ April 12, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: physis2 ]
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

phy2; given today's costing methods, it could probably be $5 a page before it became improbable. % of facility, %of equipment, % of upkeep costs, % of training of personnel, % of personnel's time (probably large % as the trained tech would have to be available all the time), and any other factored expenses. makes it look like a buck a pop is cheap.

paul
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

I'm not all that sure you're responding to what I said Paul. :)

$5.00 a page. :D :D . I know they'd love that. :D :D

Where's the NFPA's end? You know what I mean.

[ April 11, 2005, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: physis2 ]
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Ok but if i paid the county that $1 did they just break the copy write law ? And could i then copy that copy and sell it at cost of 10 cents.
Where i am going with this is if i want to sell you a copy of rules and regulations and laws can i do this?

[ April 11, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Jimwalker,

I'm not sure I can agree with or fully understand all of your statements.

1. Did the NFPA, as part of a government order, write the NEC with that intention or did it get written by concerned citizens to offer guidlines for safe practices and then did a great job of marketing it to the AHJs?

2. The NFPA is not a monopoly on codes. There are many groups that write codes. Didn't we recently discuss how certain parts of the country, IL for example, don't adopt the NEC and is it not true that some areas don't adopt recent releases of the NEC? Compliance with the NEC is determined by the AHJ is it not? This is similar to our Federal Flag Code where the federal government only defines the code and it is not a law. Each state adopts the code, or not, as a law and even adds or subtracts some of its articles when they do so. The diffence is that this code is public domain (publicly owned) and is not copywrite protected.

3. The NFPA is non-profit organization therefore, unless there is proof otherwise, they do not sell the code for profit. If you wish to see their statement, go to nfpa.org and click on the "about us" menu tab.

4. I might be able to agree with you on this point...to a point. I believe they would provide you free access but free copies? I don't know.

5. As a document of private ownership I am not so sure the law allows us this right.

6. This is true, you could but there may be consequenses.

7. See item 6.

8. If I buy a music cd and play it within earshot of others, am I in violation? No, but if I use it in my course of trade or business, I am in violation of copywrite laws. My wife owned a bar and this has become issue.

9. I don't follow you here.

10. Anyone wishing to produce their own code and market it does have a right to do so. They are also going to be held responsible for the contents.

11. Not all monopolies are illegal. For example, some utility companies such as natural gas and POCOs are legal monopolies. The NFPA is classified non-profit and therefore I don't believe laws regarding monopolies apply.

12. This is a subject that probably should be taken up with your government representative.

Bob
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Originally posted by amptech: By the way, my local library won't allow you to check out the NEC or any of the other building code books.
Click to expand...
That is the difference between their ?Reference Collection? and their ?Circulating Collection.? Reference books need to be in the library itself, so that anyone can see them at any time. A book that ?circulates? is only in the library if it is not checked out by anyone else. Most libraries would not have the money available to buy enough copies of reference books to allow them to be checked out.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

If there is no other authority, then the insurance companies take over. In large swaths of Pennsylvania the electrical inspections are done by private agencies similar to Underwriters Laboratories but these agencies inpsect building wiring rather than manufactured goods like UL does. These private agencies certify to the power supplier and to the insurance companies that your wiring is Code compliant.

Here is the Cleveland area, most of the cities had make work rules that said that you had to install knob and tube wiring long after Chicago and a few other places had banned the stuff as unsafe and bush league. My girlfriend's 2nd bathroom has knob and tube with PVC insulation on the wires. Eventually, the insurance companies through NFPA threatened to blackball any new houses that were wired with knob and tube starting with 1974 NEC. One city around here and I have trouble ginding out which one it was, was the last place to stop installing knob and tube which occured at the end of 1973.

So, if your city requires something that is utterly cretinous, your insurance company might actually help you fight city hall.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Ok but if i paid the county that $1 did they just break the copy write law ?

Probably so.

And could i then copy that copy and sell it at cost of 10 cents.

Not if you get caught.
You would probably have to pay back the fair market value of each copy, along with alot of other things that could happen.

The NFPA is not a monopoly on codes.

True. But the legal definition of a copyright is "a limited duration monopoly"

No, but if I use it in my course of trade or business, I am in violation of copywrite laws. My wife owned a bar and this has become issue.

Did she join either BMI or ASCAP? For the most part, she would need to if she has a jukebox or has a DJ or Live music. But I don't know her situation.


Jim,
the NFPA is not creating a 'Works for Hire'. They get the Exclusive right to Reproduce and Distribute copies of the work.
The copyright laws are very intricate and twisted, even for a copyright lawyer, which I'm not, but I do know something about them.
If the Code has been adopted as law, that jurisdiction (or whatever) may have to make it availible to you, such as 'the book can be looked at here...', but they are not legally going to be able to make copies of it to distribute, nor would/should they have to buy copies to distribute.
 
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