is sub metering legal?

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CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
looked at a job today - commercial building - power comes into building that goes to one main meter that then goes to a 225amp 3 phase 120-208v panel.
The last electrician then used 12/3 NM cable which was on a 2 pole 20amp breaker in that panel to feed another meter socket (did this 4 times - all right next to each other). then coming out of each meter was a tiny sub panel with 2 20amp 120v breakers in it feeding a small space -lights and receptacles. (there are 4 rooms - so 4 sub panels)
Essentially they are sub metering the 4 sub panels. Owner says he bought the (sub) meters online - they look like real regular meters. He reads them every month and does the math to subtract from the main meter or main bill and then bills each tenant for electricity use.
I have never seen this before and he said it was never inspected because the last electrician wasn't sure it was legal.

What he wants me to do is redo it with larger wire and 50amp 2 pole breakers so they can add electric heat to the spaces. (re use the existing meter sockets, replace the sub panels with larger ones and replace the sub panel wire feeds.
Any comments if this is a legal installation?
it works fine now but - I've never seen this done before - I intend on doing it the legal way with a permit but I want to do it correctly. The supply house told me to scrap it all and install this http://www.emon.com/products_class4000.htm#

anyone?
 
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iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Sure you can sub meter, I have installed many emon demons and I am currently having troubles with a Siemens sub metering set up.:rolleyes:

That said there are rules in MA about how the landlord can charge, for one thing the landlord can not mark it up and make money on it, for another they have to be 'revenue grade' meters.

I am not sure where these rules can be found, I would start with the Green book from whatever utility is serving the building.
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
IMHO, the answer to your question is yes, sub-metering IS legal, at least from the standpoint of the NEC and electrical codes. Local tenant/landlord laws may be a different story though.

As for the existing setup, I see no reason why you cannot install Code-compliant wiriing methods to each meter and subpanel. I would think some load calcs would be a good idea though, not just saying to arbitrarily raise the breakers to 50 amps.

It is NOT, to my knowledge, illegal to buy and install meters as long as you do not tamper with or replace the POCO's provided metering.

A good source for meters and sockets:

Hialeah Meter

Edited to add: Bob posted as I was writing this..I should have known that I couldn't beat Clint. :)
 
petersonra

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't know about your neck of the woods but it is not unusual for some large users around here to sell juice to tenants.

i can't imagine they would be doing it for no profit though.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Hey Coppertone I just went hunting and it looks like sub metering of dwelling units in MA is pretty much prohibited.

All my experience with sub metering has been commercial spaces.

105 CMR: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
1/26/07 105 CMR - 1615
105 CMR 410.000: MINIMUM STANDARDS OF FITNESS FOR HUMAN HABITATION (STATE
SANITARY CODE, CHAPTER II)

410.354: Metering of Electricity, Gas and Water
(A) The owner shall provide the electricity and gas used in each dwelling unit unless
(1) Such gas or electricity is metered through a meter which serves only the dwelling unit or other area under the exclusive use of an occupant of that dwelling unit, except as allowed by 105 CMR 410.254(B); and
(2) A written letting agreement provides for payment by the occupant.
(B) If the owner is required, by 105 CMR 410.000 or by a written letting agreement consistent with 105 CMR 410.000, to pay for the electricity or gas used in a dwelling unit, then such electricity or gas may be metered through meters which serve more than one dwelling unit.
(C) If the owner is not required to pay for the electricity or gas used in a dwelling unit, then the owner shall install and maintain wiring and piping so that any such electricity or gas used in the dwelling unit is metered through meters which serve only such dwelling unit, except as allowed by 105 CMR 410.254(B).
Click to expand...
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
petersonra said:
I don't know about your neck of the woods but it is not unusual for some large users around here to sell juice to tenants.

i can't imagine they would be doing it for no profit though.
Click to expand...

Cause in Iowa it's illegal. ;) You can legally sub-meter, but only for purposes of dividing up the bill. You can't profit from it.
 
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CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
This is a commercial space Iwire . I am familiar with the no sub metering law in mass for residential units. I didn't know about sub metering commercial spaces.
I guess my question now is - if we have established that it is legal to do, then the way it was done that I described in the OP - is that ok? I guess this guy wants to try to save a bit of money by re using his (sub) meters and sockets - they are new(within 6 months).

This way I could just use new wire and larger sub panels.
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
CopperTone, see my first post. I think iwire will agree, no NEC or Code reason why you can't do what you want to do. Bear in mind that re-using the exisitng meters/sockets you're now on the hook if they malfunction. :D
 
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satcom

Senior Member
Have no idea about Mass laws, In Jersey sub metering in commercial needs to be third party recorded, and billed, for residential not permitted, the laws are under the state utility regulations.
 
J

jdsmith

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
At work we get a power bill for about 120 MW and sub-meter and bill our neighbors for around half of that. Our location used to be one large complex but the ownership has been split up in recent years. AEP had to OK the arrangement because part of their service contract is that no power may be resold period - they will allow companies like mine to resell power only if pre-approved and if it is not marked up. In reality we should be able to mark it up because we're maintaining a number of 35kV breakers for our neightbors for free right now.
 
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charlietuna

Senior Member
Each state has their own rules concerning metering--but those that do allow it also include the specs for the metering equipment. Florida requires the meter's to have an ANSI IIC rating in accuracy--it also allows you to charge for the administering of the bill--but NO PROFIT off service power ! And it is the responsibility of the building owner (and of course the EC) that the meter remains accurate and is properly installed to prevent any method that the consumer can get ripped off ! In a Texas office building--a court ruled the contractor and/or building owner was responsible to return six years of billing revenues to two large law firms who shared a 12 story building because it was found that the meters were reversed and they were paying each other's bill !!! This was a million dollar mistake!!
 
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CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
i spoke to the utility company today and they said they have no requirements for sub metering as long the meters are properly labled and the AHJ has no local codes. They say they monitor, read, and bill the main meter and that is all they care about. Then I called the inspector (AHJ) and he said no problem as long as the utility has no restrictions.
So, You guys are right - you can privately sub meter in commercial settings in Mass.
thanks for the replies.
 
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GrayHeadedMule

Member
You would think that a landlord could charge a bit above the actual cost for maintenance, cost of reading the meters, cost of bookkeeping and whatever els that would be part of the "cost" of splitting the charges accordingly!

He wouldn't be making a profit on it...just not losing anything! IMO.
 
I

ITO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
This is one of those questions you should be talking to your local POCO, City and AHJ about, in lieu of asking a bunch of people on the internet what they think.
 
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CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
ITO said:
This is one of those questions you should be talking to your local POCO, City and AHJ about, in lieu of asking a bunch of people on the internet what they think.
Click to expand...

ITO - I did - thank god you are here to set things straight.
these "bunch of people" are professional electricians whose experiences are real and helpful.
It wasn't like i asked a bunch of people on the internet if I should leave my wife.
 
I

ITO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
CopperTone said:
?
these "bunch of people" are professional electricians whose experiences are real and helpful....
Click to expand...

Really which of the 10 different answers did you find the most helpful?

Well if you get yourself in a pickle with your local AHJ or Poco, you just make sure you tell them were you got your advice and that we are experts in MetroWest, MA local ordinances and codes.

Seriously if you have an NEC question, there are about a hundred guys here who could jerk off an answer verbatim out of the code book, but the question you are asking has a lot more to do with local ordnances than NEC. There are some questions that I would not trust to this group and local ordnances is a shinning example
 
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