Is the Lighting Industry a scam?

[Npstewart]

This is more of a rant but does anyone feel as though the lighting industry has become a scam? Or perhaps this is more of just my area? This sort of came to me when I was at my own home changing out my exterior soffit lights with new RGB GU10 Hue bulbs. The Hue bulbs were going into some cheap builder grade housing that has been there for 6 years and has shown zero signs of aging and they're probably not even damp listed. All the bulbs were excellently and can even be controlled individually or in unicen which took 2 mins for me to set up. In total, the whole fixture housing with the lamp probably costs $65 which made me think "How much would this same setup cost on one of my projects"? If I had to guess, maybe $400+ / fixture if I were to use some sort of Acuity based fixture - excluding controls.

I have lighting reps (many im friends with) that all have lighting lines and in my particular area there's basically 3 main companies you can buy from. The prices of their lights are extremely inflated and all of them have reasons why their lights and lines are the absolute best. Many times the materials they're made of dont ever matter because they're sitting in a ceiling or on a wall inside of an air conditioned space. They come into my office and do a dog and pony show showing me all their lights and telling me how economical they are even though in many cases they cost several hundred dollars and all of them are generally just made with an LED Lighting board and driver that usually come from the same factories as the lights you buy at Lowes, but then are "assembled" in the US.

Want a breakout of how much each fixture costs? Nope - they wont provide this. They'll just give you a package price for the entire thing. Even the lighting reps dont know what the fixture actually costs.

Want controls? Be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars to control these lights even though basic consumer grade controls incorporated in most smart homes have more functionality and are far easier to use for the end user, and also don't require any sort of commissioning, programming, or training. Also, the consumer grade controls is what the end user expects, and instead they get some sort of relay panel with integrated proprietary logic that they cant even control or have access to.

Have a problem with the lights? Figure it out because the sales rep/company will figure out a reason why its not their problem because the light was stamped with a shop drawing stamp by someone.

Want to buy from a different distributor from somewhere else? Nope, cant do that because the light rep as exclusivity over a particular brand that can be sold in their area.

Just a rant - wondering if anyone has any similar thoughts.

 

[LarryFine]

They come into my office and do a dog and pony show showing me all their lights and telling me how economical they are even though in many cases they cost several hundred dollars and all of them are generally just made with an LED Lighting board and driver that usually come from the same factories as the lights you buy at Lowes, but then are "assembled" in the US.

You're the one who pays for the visits.

 

[ramsy]

My phone can read text out load, so long rants are read much faster.

Forum member Fulthrotl is a lighting certification contractor in my state, who may deal with similar supplier issues. You can reach out with a PM if no one else is helpful.

My assumption would be consumer grade products will out-compete the monopoly system you describe peddling junk for a kings ransom.

The problem with buying from online competitors, particularly from International resellers like Amazon.com, is while the CE mark may be adequate in some countries, its not a recognized NRTL in the US.

In the US AFCI's are having the most trouble with devices not FCC approved for radio noise, especially consumer grade lighting used for IOT, and smart phone automation.

 

[tthh]

I'd say that lighting is more of the wild west than anything. It was always a bit so, but LEDs have made it nuts -- can't get the same part six months later. That's one reason why it just doesn't make sense to lock into any particular system and best to use 120V cans and get LED bulbs and always buy spares and put them on-site for the premature failures. Otherwise the color temps will be different and/or the turn on times will vary and those things drive me crazy. I try to stay away from anything but Philips and Sylvania LED bulbs and try to just use Lutron for controls.

 

[brantmacga]

Phillips Hue lamps are great. I have some at my house. But they are not the same quality as architectural-grade RGB and tunable-white fixtures.

My sales rep and manufacturer rep are top notch. About 4 years ago I stopped bidding out fixtures and controls to different vendors. I go with one vendor and one manufacturer rep, and I don’t nickel-and-dime them. That loyalty thus far has been reciprocated. If I have a problem, they handle it. It’s been especially helpful over the last 18/mo. No questions asked on warranties, and even when it’s a problem I’ve created or something me or one of the guys break, they replace it.

I’ve also benefitted from loyal customers that don’t require me to bid everything out to the lowest vendor. If the price isn’t within budget, they’ll allow me to work with my vendors to find a suitable product they represent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kansas Mountain]

I currently work for a lighting rep. The particular office I work for does well because we have relevant industry backgrounds - Industrial Distribution degrees, Masters in Interior Design, former electrician, former electrical engineer, and former A/V contractor that works on controls. We provide turnkey designs for architects/engineers/end users/design-build contractors/etc. for free, in exchange for designing around our products. We're also very heavily involved in pre-wire meetings with contractors, and heavily involved in project management. Almost all of my competitors are former used car salesman (or similar irrelevant background) and don't know jack squat about what they're trying to sell, or what to do if an issue comes up during construction.

Similar to Brant's situation, our customers are loyal, and we bend over backwards to ensure they're taken care of and that the lighting and controls portions of the projects never become their headache.

Long story short - yes, most of the lighting reps you run into will be soulless gorillas that will put their hand in the cookie jar every time you're not looking.

But we're not all bad, and our office takes a lot of risk with the services we provide. We can (and do) put 100+ hours into a design, and still lose a bid and never make a dime off said project. But when we provide real design and project management services, then we have just as much right to make a reasonable margin, same as any other trade involved being valued for the years it took to develop the knowledge base and skills to deliver quality solution.

And regarding protecting pricing, yes, some are simply looking to protect their outrageous markups. But also, if distributors and contractors find out that you are revealing your pricing, you are thereby exposing their markups as well. Real good way to get blacklisted by the other industry members that you have to have relationships with to be successful.

 

[petersonra]

It is no more a scam than anyone else who is trying to sell you something on commission. Life insurance is not a scam. It's a necessary product for most people. The guy selling it is making a commission and his children will starve if he doesn't sell you something.

That does not make him a crook. It just means you have to do some shopping maybe or some research to find out what it is you really need in the way of life insurance. For instance, for most people, term life insurance is the most appropriate protection. It's also the most cost-effective. But there are some cases where whole life makes sense, even though the insurance salesman will get a bigger commission out of you.

It is your job as a buyer to do enough research on what you are trying to buy so you are not completely screwed by the salesman. Sometimes the salesman will screw you and he doesn't even mean to. This can happen when you don't tell him what your needs actually are.

If you need a bare bones lighting system so you can compete price wise, this needs to be part of the conversation. If the customer wants something fancy and is willing to pay for it, you need to find out from the customer what they want and are willing to pay for, and that needs to be part of the conversation with the lighting salesman.

Never forget though that at the heart of this relationship there is a sales commission involved. The lighting people are not in this for their health or to benefit you. They are in it to benefit themselves and to make a living so their children do not starve. It is up to you to protect yourself in this relationship. That is not to say that all lighting salesman are scum of the earth. A handful probably are just like a handful of the human beings you will meet today are low lifes.

My guess is you can probably source the stuff yourself online for a lot less if you know what you need. That is the way things usually work. But if you don't want to do that, or are unwilling to learn enough to be able to do it correctly, which probably isn't that big of a deal, you will be forced to effectively pay someone else to do it for you.

I would also not be fooled by the artificial partition of products into commercial grade and residential grade. Often what a sold is residential grade stuff is perfectly serviceable and most customers will not care one way or the other what they get. They just want lights. They might want to do some remote control of some or all of them, but must people just don't care. They go into the kitchen they want to turn on the lights. A light switch is just fine for them. Maybe a light switch with a dimmer attached. Most people that's about all they really care about. A few people are big on gadgets and are willing to spend money for them. I would let them. But you should know that those gadgets will make the cost of the lighting system 2 to 10 times more than just regular light fixtures that will be just as serviceable.

 

[__dan]

Yes.

When I was bidding public works plan and specs, that was the 1990's and the lighting package could vary from 140k to 240k for the same tightly specced lighting package. Kind of hard to bid (which number), and then when I saw other subs bid, bids could come in at my material cost.

Back then the bid process would swing into overdrive after the bids opened. Guys would go back to their suppliers for the "real" number, after the bid opening.

One job they took a stock 2' x 4' drop in troffer that was stocked in volume locally for $44, and added one letter at the end of the model number which made it a $244. fixture 90 days out. It was not even a factory model number.

On State Work, it was not a matter of getting blacklisted. It was a controlled market and guys like me were just not on the list. I did that job with the (several hundred) $244 drop in troffers, of course made no money at it, and the rep would not even correct their count when I told them they were one fixture short. Bid other stuff at the same time, where the swing in the fixture package was all of the labor for the job.

I was willing to be loyal and do it their way, not much choice there. One bid, the bidder for a huge union contractor wanted to know my numbers. Turned out he had the same numbers I had but the winning bidder came in at the material package cost for the UPS. I had seen that the floor support for the UPS was not in the bid documents, but neither of us could guess at what the other guy was really bidding.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Want controls? Be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars to control these lights even though basic consumer grade controls incorporated in most smart homes have more functionality and are far easier to use for the end user, and also don't require any sort of commissioning, programming, or training. Also, the consumer grade controls is what the end user expects, and instead they get some sort of relay panel with integrated proprietary logic that they cant even control or have access to.

Have a problem with the lights? Figure it out because the sales rep/company will figure out a reason why its not their problem because the light was stamped with a shop drawing stamp by someone.

Want to buy from a different distributor from somewhere else? Nope, cant do that because the light rep as exclusivity over a particular brand that can be sold in their area.

i can give you the contact information of the owner of my wholesale house,
and you can form a support group..... ;-) he is a fan as well.

there is a very tight relationship between lighting manufacturers, and engineers
who specify products. always has been. i've been going to light show west for
a very long time, going on 25 years. the entire purpose of that show is to build
relationships between reps and specifiers. if you aren't an engineer or a specifier,
they really don't have time for you.

when i was going as a electrician, you are background noise. when you are going
as a contractor, you really aren't why that show is there.
when i was going as a title 24 certifier, it's not much different. you don't specify
what gets installed. you are slightly more useful, as you have to sign off on the
lighting controls and installation.

but the real reason you exist as a title 24 certification guy is to make sure those
controls are installed. you are a sales aid. nobody is gonna put those controls in
if they don't have to.

the lighting industry is extremely ingrown, and protective of it's market. i had a
small office (3,000 sq. ft.) that had metalux lights specified. i couldn't even get
metalux to quote me on the job, and had to go with my wholesale houses best
guess. these were droopy poopy lights, along the lines of an exposed two tube fixture
one could get at home desperate for about $40 at the time.

the lighting package came back almost as much as my bid. almost $60k.
i went to the owner of the property and explained what was up. he said pick
out a good lighting package, order it, and send him cut sheets. the package
was nice stuff, and was $6,500. screw metalux.

right now, the lights people are installing are whatever they can get. substitutions
get made. lighting controls? you want them when? really?

lutron vive controls? i know where there is one vive hub, and two powerpacks.
and some picos. and a daylighting sensor. i have more lutron vive stuff in my whatnot
box in the garage than my wholesale house has for sale.

an intermatic 365 day astronomical timeclock? i used to buy them by the case,
at $350 each for the two circuit ones, and keep them handy, so contractors who
were using a yellow dial intermatic could change them out for the approved one
and avoid my return trip charge. now, if you want one, they are about $525, and
nobody has them for sale.

i'm well connected within the lighting industry, and there are convulsions now,
trying to supply product for existing jobs. it is making a difficult situation for all
concerned.

 

[MoOnBoY!]

i can give you the contact information of the owner of my wholesale house,
and you can form a support group..... ;-) he is a fan as well.

there is a very tight relationship between lighting manufacturers, and engineers
who specify products. always has been. i've been going to light show west for
a very long time, going on 25 years. the entire purpose of that show is to build
relationships between reps and specifiers. if you aren't an engineer or a specifier,
they really don't have time for you.

when i was going as a electrician, you are background noise. when you are going
as a contractor, you really aren't why that show is there.
when i was going as a title 24 certifier, it's not much different. you don't specify
what gets installed. you are slightly more useful, as you have to sign off on the
lighting controls and installation.

but the real reason you exist as a title 24 certification guy is to make sure those
controls are installed. you are a sales aid. nobody is gonna put those controls in
if they don't have to.

the lighting industry is extremely ingrown, and protective of it's market. i had a
small office (3,000 sq. ft.) that had metalux lights specified. i couldn't even get
metalux to quote me on the job, and had to go with my wholesale houses best
guess. these were droopy poopy lights, along the lines of an exposed two tube fixture
one could get at home desperate for about $40 at the time.

the lighting package came back almost as much as my bid. almost $60k.
i went to the owner of the property and explained what was up. he said pick
out a good lighting package, order it, and send him cut sheets. the package
was nice stuff, and was $6,500. screw metalux.

right now, the lights people are installing are whatever they can get. substitutions
get made. lighting controls? you want them when? really?

lutron vive controls? i know where there is one vive hub, and two powerpacks.
and some picos. and a daylighting sensor. i have more lutron vive stuff in my whatnot
box in the garage than my wholesale house has for sale.

an intermatic 365 day astronomical timeclock? i used to buy them by the case,
at $350 each for the two circuit ones, and keep them handy, so contractors who
were using a yellow dial intermatic could change them out for the approved one
and avoid my return trip charge. now, if you want one, they are about $525, and
nobody has them for sale.

i'm well connected within the lighting industry, and there are convulsions now,
trying to supply product for existing jobs. it is making a difficult situation for all
concerned.

You had talked a while back about some guy in your apprenticeship program that took on a bet & roughed 3 houses in 3 days. Do you know how he did it. I'm trying to get faster at roughing houses. Thanks.

 

[Fulthrotl]

You had talked a while back about some guy in your apprenticeship program that took on a bet & roughed 3 houses in 3 days. Do you know how he did it. I'm trying to get faster at roughing houses. Thanks.

that probably would have been louis. louis was fast. nobody really could keep up with him.
there was also the peruvian marching powder, that had sub optimal long term side effects.

learn how to pull a contractors license, and start bidding. then, get the "bare bones weekend business plan"
by ellen, and learn how to make something besides subsistence as a self employed fellow.

you can only work fast for so long. then you get tired.

i've worked behind old guys who never wasted a move, when i was a muppet.
smooth is better than a rocket.

 

[gene6]

This is more of a rant ../snip/..

Want controls? Be prepared

This is the main issue with Lutron
A) All their controls rely on a battery. A battery think about that. If they advertise a battery will last n years make that n months.
next when that sucker fails by leaking it actually destroys the circuit board in the control device.
B) All their controls rely on WIFI, not as big of a deal unless your working for say uh the government. FYI all WIFI is hackable. All of it. No not some of it, alllll offf it. No joke, just ask a 16yo geek.
If your working for the dept of state or the dept of defense and you connect a Lutron lighting control to the wifi network it better be isolated or heads will roll. When our IT department finds issues in these devices the NSA just vacuums them up and won't let us report them. Thats why they are called 'zerodays'. Just google a zeroday.