Is there a violation here ?

[msd]

Is this legal ?

I often see older electrical panels in 2 and 3 story apartments that are stacked directly over each other from floor to floor. Feeders for the 2nd and 3dr floor panels pass through the panel on the 1st floor. The 2nd floor has the feeders for the 3rd floor passing through it.

1. The feeders are not spliced in any panel, there is no service loop.

2. The property is maintained by a management co. on call 24 hrs. a day

3. Each panel is on its own meter and 100-Amp main breaker.


Conduits and conductors sized corectly, ect........ Is there a violation here ?
Perhaps allowed under an exception ? Could use some help on this one.....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't beleve this is a violation as long as you maintain fill requirements. Article 312.6 but read it all the way

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.

 

[msd]

Agreed that 312.8 permits this "if adequate space for this purpose is provided."

However, consider the safety issue ?????

If Sparkey is working in the panel on the 1st floor, and opens the main breaker marked 1st floor, he ASSumes that power to the entire floor is off. (atlease all power inside the panel he just shut off).

In fact the 2nd & 3rd floor feeders passing through the 1st floor panel are still HOT.


So is this one of those situations that the code does not specifically forbid, although not the smartest thing to do ????

I have seen this situstion many times, but i have always been able to avoid doing this on installations that I have done in the past. A unique situation has come up where I would like to employ this type of wire routing. There is no easy way to stager the panels or re-route the feeders without extreme structure damage.

Is there a code section that forbids doing this.

 

[kwired]

Is this legal ?

I often see older electrical panels in 2 and 3 story apartments that are stacked directly over each other from floor to floor. Feeders for the 2nd and 3dr floor panels pass through the panel on the 1st floor. The 2nd floor has the feeders for the 3rd floor passing through it.

1. The feeders are not spliced in any panel, there is no service loop.

2. The property is maintained by a management co. on call 24 hrs. a day

3. Each panel is on its own meter and 100-Amp main breaker.


Conduits and conductors sized corectly, ect........ Is there a violation here ?
Perhaps allowed under an exception ? Could use some help on this one.....

What do you mean by there is no service loop?

If it means all these conductors through the other panels are service conductors there is a problem here.

If they are feeders with overcurrent protection the fact that they pass through another panel is ok if there is proper space for them.

 

[Jupe Blue]

I had a panel change in a similar situation. Two story condos, both fed through a common gutter in garage. We shut power off to both units at each main disconnect, pulled back the feeders, swapped the first floor panel and put the original wires right back in. We did clear it with our AHJ before proceeding.

 

[macmikeman]

I've seen some that had a side cabinet built in from the factory that was used to help during pull to get the higher floors pulled to. But they had a separation barrier from the panel interior so that only the panel's feeders actually came into the panel.

 

[LarryFine]

In fact the 2nd & 3rd floor feeders passing through the 1st floor panel are still HOT.

If I saw conductors passing through a panel, I'd presume them to be hot.

 

[msd]

I am proficient on the NEC and beleive this to be a code compliant situation. I must admit though, I only see this on old school installations. Makes me wonder why this trade practice has stopped. Low-bid-Sparkey could be saving a few bucks on conduit by doing it this way, so it seems like you would see this still being done these days.

 

[msd]

If I saw conductors passing through a panel, I'd presume them to be hot.



Thats because you are a Fine electrician.
Some Sparkeys are not so fine.

 

[macmikeman]

When I think about it, I have worked on many public schools that did more or less the same thing- ran feeders straight thru panelboards on the way to panels where they end up. It's pretty basic to figure out that you don't want to just go cutting into those extra conductors...... So I figure that if you do, you get what's coming to you.