Is this deck box wrong and bonding?

[ritelec]

Hello,
Pool man sent me to look at pool at a residence that hasn't been opened in 10 years.
Owner is thinking about opening it and selling house.

Power goes to a pool house or shed (mens room, ladies room center is equipment) .Looks to have been installed in 50's or 60's.
Looks like 3/4 rigid with 3 wire #12 uf sleeved feeding a federal panel. The panel has 12 or so circuits feeding the pool house, maybe outside lights and equipment..
two motors, gas heater.

(not getting too crazy in this, but looks like there's an fs box under the panel 3/4 rigid in and out of the bottom, 3/4 out of top to panel. The wires in one 3/4 in bottom of fs box goes through the top and seems to be feed to panel, the ground of that wire is insulated and goes right out through the other 3/4 entering the bottom of the fs box (no ground to panel). A hot and neutral come from the panel and into that 3/4 out of the bottom of the fs box that the ground runs.... I "think to a deck box which is located under the diving-bored)

Couple questions.. I am enclosing a picture of the deck box... is it right?
to the far right is rigid 3/4 that a solid #8 ground is coming into. it is bonded to the metal of the deck box.

The center looks like copper with a 3 wire sj or something (the light).

The left is pvc with the light circuit ( although at pool house it is rigid... there may have been work done?? the cement maybe looks different)

But I'm asking because, I'm confused about the bond... from reading and recent posts, the bond doesn't go to the deck box.... an insulated 8 goes from the box to the fixture along with the light ground. And the circuit ground goes to the box...


in and around this pool there are some metal ladders.. I can't tell if they are bonded. at the deck box diving board ,, there are two poured short small cement walls that the dive sits between. there are two pieces of metal between the walls that the board sits on and two metal railings out of the tops of the cement...
Would all of that need to be bonded?

There is a bond wire at the pumps and the one in and out at the deck box so I'm guessing it was done right at the time..

When did the equipotential grid come into existence ? I doubt it has one, but wouldn't know for a fact.

Is there any way to tell... guess the grid would need a visually, as far as the ladders and any metal or the pool, any measurements, or there too would be visual?


So looking at this mess I'm considering not even reusing or trying to reuse whats there.

I wasn't able to get into the house, but guess by guess is it's an older federal also,

My thought is to feed the pool house with a new conduit and feeder as if whatever electrical is there isn't..(not sure how the gas pipe feeding the old heater is so maybe a 100 or 150 amp feeder.)
Cement cut around pool for equipotential grid and pick up ladders and board...and light...

I should be ok with a panel there right...as long as the ground is insulated..the pool equipment can go to it.?

In reading I believe so, and there are conditions of bare ground for existing..

As not to waste time, guys probably just thinking or shopping numbers, but was considering the bond in and out at the deck box and what year the perimeter surface bond came to be..

thank you..

 

[augie47]

I went back to the 1990 NEC to see if there had been any changes applicable to your install and didn't pick up on any pertinent ones.
As far as the deck box, if the conduit to the light is brass, there is no requirement for the #8. The bare may be from the equipotential bonding grid which is not necessary, but it also may be from the light niche which would not meet Code.
It appears that at least as far back as 1990 a insulated equipment grounding conductor would need to have been installed in the feeder conduit to the remote panel.

 

[north star]

( : : : : )

If this project of yours is a "time sensitive" one, then [ IMO ], it would
be more prudent to act if this was a totally "new" installation.

Cut everything existing out of the way and proceed with installing
everything to the current code [ in your area ].......Bond everything
in and around the pool area and install back to the panel or motor
grounding electrode(s).

If you have to install a "new" equipotential grid around the pool itself,
then so be it.

Explain to the owner [ in writing ] that you are unsure of the existing
components, and do not want to expose him; or yourself, to any
electrical liability issues after you are finished........If the owner
decides not to have the pool electrical system \ components updated,
then at least you will have tried to do the right thing.

Yes, ...it DOES matter ! :happyyes:

( : : : : )

 

[xformer]

Hello,
Pool man sent me to look at pool at a residence that hasn't been opened in 10 years.
Owner is thinking about opening it and selling house.

Power goes to a pool house or shed (mens room, ladies room center is equipment) .Looks to have been installed in 50's or 60's.
Looks like 3/4 rigid with 3 wire #12 uf sleeved feeding a federal panel. The panel has 12 or so circuits feeding the pool house, maybe outside lights and equipment..
two motors, gas heater.

(not getting too crazy in this, but looks like there's an fs box under the panel 3/4 rigid in and out of the bottom, 3/4 out of top to panel. The wires in one 3/4 in bottom of fs box goes through the top and seems to be feed to panel, the ground of that wire is insulated and goes right out through the other 3/4 entering the bottom of the fs box (no ground to panel). A hot and neutral come from the panel and into that 3/4 out of the bottom of the fs box that the ground runs.... I "think to a deck box which is located under the diving-bored)

Couple questions.. I am enclosing a picture of the deck box... is it right?
to the far right is rigid 3/4 that a solid #8 ground is coming into. it is bonded to the metal of the deck box.

The center looks like copper with a 3 wire sj or something (the light).

The left is pvc with the light circuit ( although at pool house it is rigid... there may have been work done?? the cement maybe looks different)

But I'm asking because, I'm confused about the bond... from reading and recent posts, the bond doesn't go to the deck box.... an insulated 8 goes from the box to the fixture along with the light ground. And the circuit ground goes to the box...


in and around this pool there are some metal ladders.. I can't tell if they are bonded. at the deck box diving board ,, there are two poured short small cement walls that the dive sits between. there are two pieces of metal between the walls that the board sits on and two metal railings out of the tops of the cement...
Would all of that need to be bonded?

There is a bond wire at the pumps and the one in and out at the deck box so I'm guessing it was done right at the time..

When did the equipotential grid come into existence ? I doubt it has one, but wouldn't know for a fact.

Is there any way to tell... guess the grid would need a visually, as far as the ladders and any metal or the pool, any measurements, or there too would be visual?


So looking at this mess I'm considering not even reusing or trying to reuse whats there.

I wasn't able to get into the house, but guess by guess is it's an older federal also,

My thought is to feed the pool house with a new conduit and feeder as if whatever electrical is there isn't..(not sure how the gas pipe feeding the old heater is so maybe a 100 or 150 amp feeder.)
Cement cut around pool for equipotential grid and pick up ladders and board...and light...

I should be ok with a panel there right...as long as the ground is insulated..the pool equipment can go to it.?

In reading I believe so, and there are conditions of bare ground for existing..

As not to waste time, guys probably just thinking or shopping numbers, but was considering the bond in and out at the deck box and what year the perimeter surface bond came to be..

thank you..

Couldnt a Continuity Tester be used to determine this?

 

[ritelec]

Thank you for the replies. The conduit on the right is imc I believe. The center one may be brass and not copper.

I basically took the position of wiring it like new. Before reading your response. I explained to the pool man and mentioned if I touch it I would have to do it right. Feeder too small gfi's ,we'll everything about it.
Then started thinking well maybe I could gfci protect it an do this and that clean it up... Well after reading your suggestion, you've got me thinking about not just getting it working for the sake of getting it working

Thank you.

 

[eiplanner]

Thank you for the replies. The conduit on the right is imc I believe. The center one may be brass and not copper.

I basically took the position of wiring it like new. Before reading your response. I explained to the pool man and mentioned if I touch it I would have to do it right. Feeder too small gfi's ,we'll everything about it.
Then started thinking well maybe I could gfci protect it an do this and that clean it up... Well after reading your suggestion, you've got me thinking about not just getting it working for the sake of getting it working

Thank you.

Concerning the deck box. It appears in your photo that the box is within 5 feet from the water's edge. Since it's metal, it is required to be bonded. The lug it's bonded with may not be rated for two #8 wires. This can easily be fixed by cutting the lug off the wire and installing a lay-in style lug in its place (never having to cut the wire itself). The rest looks fine (other than people cutting their wires so short). The box is required to have the insulated ground back to the supply panel as well. Overall, the installation appears to have been done correctly in the first place. By looping their bonding wire into that lug, it seems they must have continued it on to other apparatus or equipment. By using a threaded hub brass junction box, I would quickly assume they took the code seriously when performing the installation. Those boxes are quite expensive. Because they raised the box above the water level (looks like at least 8 inches and thereby within code, also an indication the project was done with the code in mind), you won't have to fill the box with an approved potting material to seal it off, as you would if it had been a flush-mount deck box. For extra verification, you could use a long piece of wire connected to your meter and verify continuity between the bond in the j-box and the light niche and back to the pool pump. As for the equipotential bonding grid, the AHJ will most likely not require a visual if it is very apparent that the original install was done long before the rule came into existence and all of the metal fixtures can be verified continuous back to the equipment.

 

[ritelec]

Thank you for the response.

Gonna have to see how poolman plays this out.

Real quick.
When I looked at it, the pool equipment (2 pumps, gas heater pool light) is in the pool house (cabana) center room. To left and right are male and female bathrooms (this is a residence).
The pad the equipment is on is about 3 inches lower than the floor in the equipment room and two baths....
The pool equipment, this men's and women's room cabana and all outside lighting around the pool comes from a federal panel.

The federal is an exterior panel mounted on the heater fed with a 12-3 uf (that looks to have a insulated ground.. couple of weeks ago and didn't look "real" deep into it)
Out of the top of the federal they have a conduit going straight into the ceiling with uf's and nm's sleeved to feed everything not pool related.

My best guess is someone installed a 20 amp 240v circuit with a neutral for the pool equipment and pool light on a pad (outside by pool). Then someone down the road decided to build a cabana around this power.

I mentioned as far as bringing a new feeder out to the pool area for the cabana and exterior lighting and pool.

I was not able to get into the house. I don't know if the current feeder is on a 20 or 30 or 60 ? It is off, I think he's just going to turn it on to see what works and what doesn't.

I mentioned what was involved and gave him a ball park number to what it would cost. I also mentioned that he may turn whatever breaker is feeding the cabana on and everything thing may work or he replace motors and the heater, and it didn't cost him or the owner (who's thinking about selling and wants to know what it would take to get the pool working) a penny. BUT that if someone got hurt, someone would be looking for more money from who ever turned that breaker on than it would have cost to do the proper job.

So poolman hasn't called back.. not sure where it stands..

thanks again