Isolated Ground Circuit

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fozmo

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I am getting ready to install some Isolated Ground Circuits for IT switches in an industrial setting. The plans call for an isolated receptacle at each switch box. My question is can I use the same isolated ground per each branch circuit or do I need to run a separate isolated ground per each device back to the panel?

Thanks, fozmo
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

So we are saying each receptacle needs to have a isolated ground back to source even if it is on the same branch cicuit? Correct.

Thanks;

foz
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

I think what you are asking is this: You can run a single branch circuit to several receptacle outlets within the same room, or from room to room. But does each receptacle outlet have to have its ?isolated ground? wire run separately back to the source? In other words, will the conduit that serves this branch circuit have, at the point at which it leaves the panel, one hot wire, one grounded wire, and a collection of many IG wires (one for each receptacle outlet)?

I think the answer to either question would be ?yes.?
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Charlie, maybe I misunderstood, but if you install IGR in a daisy-chained fashion as I think you described is code compliant, but it completely defeats the purpose of the IGR.

In order for IGR to be effective it should originate from a transformer or UPS then be ran dedicated IMO. Daisy-chaining only allows noise to be compounded.
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

I disagree w/ you guys on this. I don't see the language to prohibit or allow it. The code appears to be silent. 250.146(D)
If you talk about good design, then I bow to your expertise.
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Larry the code is a permisive document. If the code does not state you can do it a paticular way, then you may. What he descibes is compliant IMO. But I was addressing the qestion from a design POV.
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

We are curently wiring an office with same issue.To start with can someone even exsplain just what good an IG does ? They want this because of computers and i can't see it being of any value.A dedicated IG i can understand
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Dereck
I missed your last post. I agree daisy chain IG is allowed by code. Since this is your area, I'll ask your thoughts on the following

We get a lot of IG's spec'd for anything remotely electronic or IT in nature.

Point of Sale stations for food service

Recep's for desk top computers

Multimedia equipment

Other stuff I can't think of

Does any of this stuff REALLY require an IG ground for the reduction of electrical noise(electromagnetic interference). If not then an IG recep is not permitted to be used. We haevn't made a big deal about it in the past (requiring proof); and unless there was a danger, I wouldn't make a big deal now.

Just curious
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Larry, as long as they are wired correctly, I wouldn?t make a stink either, they should be safe. On the other hand I am no fan of IGR. There only use is a possible means of obtaining common mode electrical noise reduction on the circuit it is used on. It is very easy to corrupt the circuit by interconnecting cables like RS-232, coax shields, or incidental contact with other grounded objects.

I work in the telecom sector and we do not use them period in any of our data-centers. We use strictly UPS and PDU?s with dedicated SG circuits. We will install them for customers who demand them, but they have to sign a waiver to exempt us from liability of corruption, which they usually do themselves.

Example they bolt their equipment in an equipment frame without isolation. The equipment frames are bonded to a SRG under the raised floor, or they interconnect at DS3 signal level via coax. I get a bang out of showing the customers they corrupted themselves when they raise a stink about it. They usually ask for assistance then, and I always advise SG. Problems seems to magically go away. They ask why, answer is the multi-point ground of the SRG system.

Now that is not to say they do not have any use. A/V systems can benefit is used properly with an isolation transformer. However if you use a isolation transformer with a dedicated quad outlet to power all the A/V equipment, then you do not need IGR b/c all equipment is served via SPG.

On the lighter side (cynical side) are the nuts in wood framed houses asking for IGR using Romex and plastic boxes. :D :D

[ December 02, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Dereck,
There are a lot of different idea on this out there. I've worked on two projects where the specs required the isolated grounding conductor as well as the hot and neutral to be daisy chained. In on case, we were required to wrap the wires around the screws on the first receptacle and then continue on to the next receptacle on the circuit. Splices of any type were not permitted.
I really don't think that IGs do much good, but if they want to pay me to put them in, I will.
Don
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Don, I agree. I will state my case to the customer, and if they still insist, I will spec them laughing all the way to the bank.
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

IMO, the vast majority of new IG recpt. installations are not necessary.

Modern IT equipment does not need them, but that is really beside the point.
The point being that properly bonded & grounded (earthed) electrical systems do the job just fine.

At commercial/industrial facilities back in the early - mid 80's, sure we put a lot of them in.
But now I do all I can to discourage their use.

I will however, condone their use if they are properly installed in properly bonded & grounded (earthed) electrical systems.

Can you imagine being an IT equipment salesperson & having to convince a customer that he must have major wiring alterations in order for the IT equipment to work ?
And then the customer tells the salesperson - "but I have the same equipment in my 1963 house. I just plugged it in to the wall & all works fine."
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Thanks guys I'm going to seperate them since that is what the customer wants.

Fozmo

[ December 03, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: fozmo ]
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Dereck
A couple questions on your abbreviations:
SG Solidly Grounded ?
SRG Signal Reference Ground ?
DS3 ?

I think I see why we still get people wanting an IG buss in a panel to connect to a ground rod w/ no IG in the feeder. It isolates the frame of the equipment from any of those acidental contact conditions you mention above.

Sounds like what I always suspected is true and that is properly grounding eqipment works just fine, I just had no way to explain or back it up.
Thanks
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Originally posted by sandsnow:
Dereck
A couple questions on your abbreviations:
SG Solidly Grounded ? Correct
SRG Signal Reference Ground ? Correct
DS3 ? A digital signal 3 or 45 M/bs
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Q:
How much of a concern is the following?

"Many people don't realize that voltage differences (steady-state and/or instantaneous) between the building's common ground and isolated ground systems drive unwanted circulating current through data cables"

http://www.powerquality.com/mag/power_preventing_isolated_ground/

I've worked in data centers whose power is
coming from an PDU with an isolation transformer,
and all the recepticles are IG (orange).

But - of course the CAT 5 cabling goes to
desktop computers thru out the bldg which
are on normal circuits.

thanks
m
 
Re: Isolated Ground Circuit

Originally posted by mrsilta:
Q:
How much of a concern is the following?

"Many people don't realize that voltage differences (steady-state and/or instantaneous) between the building's common ground and isolated ground systems drive unwanted circulating current through data cables"

But - of course the CAT 5 cabling goes to
desktop computers thru out the bldg which
are on normal circuits. thanks
It is true, but not with Cat 5 or any other balanced or optical transmission medium. The problem is with mediums like RS-232, V.35, etc that use ground as a signal path or have a shield. IGR is practically useless in data centers. The reason is it is highly like to be corrupted or defeated by the equipment installation or interconnected circuits (I/O) using grounded or shielded cables.

Best method is as you described. A UPS with PDU?s, but with dedicated standard SG receptacles.
 
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