Isolated Ground Circuits

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jmdsr1975

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Location
Michigan
Well, first I would like to say hello to all the members :happyyes: Finally, after 10 years I have decided it was time to quit being lazy and register as a member on here instead of just always reading the posts :p

Anyways, we have secured a large contract with the McDonald's Corporation repairing and installing new Isolated Ground Systems for each restaurant and many employees have raised questions about how much of a benefit there is to these systems.... Having done about 100 restaurants as of now, I would like to ask the members what you all think? Thank you in advance!
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Most of the information out there says there is no real value to IG so I agree with the previous two posts.

Exactly what are you installing? To install a code compliant IG in an existing building would be a fair amount of work, and compliance with the electrical safe work rule would likely require some outage time and connections would need to be made in the service equipment.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
20+ years ago when computers used RS232 or coax, differences in ground potentials for different circuits would cause data issues.
Today with CAT 5, 5E, etc, those computers or cash registers are isolated from each other.
It may be McDs has some very old boilerplate specs.

But there are some applications for isolated ground ckts, particularly for audio sound systems.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Just curious are they just installing IG outlets or are they going with an entire new distribution system for the electronic loads that may include UPS etc and IGs are more or less just a result of that work?

I work mostly in retail and it seems that anytime a chain goes with separate panels, transformers etc for the electronic loads they still include IG in with that.

I think it is a waste and generally is not isolated soon after it is installed either by incidental contact of grounded parts or other electricians not knowing they are dealing with an IG.
 

Pizza

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
I think it's architect and engineering BS way to drive up the cost of the job so they get more of the cut.


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I work mostly in retail and it seems that anytime a chain goes with separate panels, transformers etc for the electronic loads they still include IG in with that.

I think part of it is the orange outlets. It's easy to say "No heaters/whatever in the orange outlets". Not that they couldn't use any color outlets or plates for the protected power, but the arch-y probably only know about brown, ivory, and orange.
 

jtinge

Senior Member
Location
Hampton, VA
Occupation
Sr. Elec. Engr
From IEEE 1000, Recommended practices on Powering and Grounding Electronic Equipment

8.5.3.2 Insulated ground configuration
The insulated ground configuration also uses an insulated EGC, typically green in color with yellow stripe,
run with the phase, neutral, and standard EGCs from the electronic load equipment to the equipment
grounding terminal of the power system or separately derived system. As opposed to the standard equipment
grounding configuration, this additional insulated EGC typically connects the insulated ground receptacle
(IGR) only to the equipment grounding terminal or bus of the power system source or separately derived
system. This EGC extends radially downstream to the chassis of the electronic load equipment without
contacting any grounded metal surfaces such as metal conduits and raceways, panelboards, and outlet boxes
for receptacles (see Figure 8-17 and Figure 8-18). When this equipment grounding configuration is used, the
enclosing metal raceway must still be properly grounded. This type of equipment grounding configuration is
only intended to be used for reducing common-mode electrical noise on the electronic load equipment
circuit as described in the NEC. It has no other purpose and its effects are variable and controversial. The
use of the traditional orange-colored insulated grounding receptacle for the express purpose of identifying
computer grade power is not allowed per the NEC. If unacceptable EMI is found to be active on the circuit,
an insulated grounding receptacle circuit may be considered as one potential mitigation method. Robust
design of the electronic load equipment for immunity to disturbances on the grounding circuit is another
method. Particularly for distributed computing and telecommunications electronic loads, using optical
signaling interfaces reduces susceptibility to disturbances on the grounding circuit.

We don't use them where I work, we just make sure we have an NEC compliant grounding system.
 

jtinge

Senior Member
Location
Hampton, VA
Occupation
Sr. Elec. Engr
They are synonymous. Prior to 2005, IEEE 1100 referred to it as an isolated ground. For some reason I am not aware of it was changed to insulated ground, but they are talking about the same thing. I have seen it referred to both ways in other literature also.

BTW. The IEEE reference in the previous post should have been IEEE 1100 not IEEE 1000.


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brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
Isolated Ground Circuits

It's not the architects and engineers; the reason it's required is that the POS vendor will not upgrade their equipment without isolated grounding circuits installed. They also won't install equipment in a new store without IG.

You're also required to have isolated grounds at the D/T COD for the display.

New stores get a dedicated panel; existing stores you install a lifted ground bar at the AP panels and then tie in at the main bonding point.

Some owners lose their damn minds over this and think it's for surge protection.

Are you doing McOPCO or O/O stores?


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brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
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This was in a mcd's we added a side-by-side D/T at; they had good intentions.


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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
20+ years ago when computers used RS232 or coax, differences in ground potentials for different circuits would cause data issues.
Today with CAT 5, 5E, etc, those computers or cash registers are isolated from each other.
It may be McDs has some very old boilerplate specs.

But there are some applications for isolated ground ckts, particularly for audio sound systems.



Which was only needed where standing neutral to ground faults existed. A system with no standing faults does fine, and most new equipment in 2016 could not care less what conditions existed in the building wiring. The money Mcds is spending to retrofit IG could be spent on other improvements that will payback at least 1000 times more.
 
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