jeffy (High Electric Bill Diagnosis)
- Thread starter jeffgause
- Start date
- Status
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
AC running 24/7 because it's low on gas.
AC running 24/7 because the heat is also stuck on.
These are the two most common things I find, followed closely by AC running 24/7 because the ductwork came apart somewhere in a unconditioned space and bad underground feeder wasting energy turning a localized area of earth into a heating element.
The troubleshooting procedure is to turn off breakers one by one and observe the operation of the kilowatt hour meter or take amp readings.
AC running 24/7 because the heat is also stuck on.
These are the two most common things I find, followed closely by AC running 24/7 because the ductwork came apart somewhere in a unconditioned space and bad underground feeder wasting energy turning a localized area of earth into a heating element.
The troubleshooting procedure is to turn off breakers one by one and observe the operation of the kilowatt hour meter or take amp readings.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
jeffgause said:
If the bill is truely too high for the amount of energy supposedly used then I would check for a wire that may be shorting somewhere. I had a similar problem years ago at a job. I found an old underground wire that was energized and cut off-- it was leaking to ground and running the bill up. At least that apparently stopped the problem.
The first two things I would check, if they are present, would be the water heater and the HVAC system. It's been rare, bu I have seen water heater elements "leak" to ground (water) and pull current when not needed to heat water. Even more rare, I have seen HVAC units trying to heat & cool at the same time.
Over the years the most common factor I've seen is the "human element".
Over the years the most common factor I've seen is the "human element".
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
augie47 said:
Also if only one element on the water heater is working it will also run up the bill significantly.
ultramegabob
Senior Member
- Location
- Indiana
heat tape on water lines with bad thermostat, baseboard heaters inadvertently turned on or bad thermostats.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080802-2012 EST
Dennis:
How does one element of a hot water heater not working cause the required energy to heat the water increase?
If you supply half the power input to heat water, then it takes twice as long to raise the temperature 1 degree. It takes the same total energy in both cases, therefore the same cost if all energy comes from the same meter.
.
Dennis:
How does one element of a hot water heater not working cause the required energy to heat the water increase?
If you supply half the power input to heat water, then it takes twice as long to raise the temperature 1 degree. It takes the same total energy in both cases, therefore the same cost if all energy comes from the same meter.
.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
If they have a well, look for that pump running continuously, Check their electric bill from last year same month, note the temperature and such... life style changes, home all the time now? etc, etc, etc... I find it rare that a problem really exists, other than cost of electricity and HO's lifestyle has changed.
Buck Parrish
Senior Member
- Location
- NC & IN
stickboy1375 said:
We use to get lot's of renters complaining about the power bill being to high.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
gar said:
I am not sure but I have always been told by the HO that there bills were higher till I fixed the element. Maybe not but I was thinking the elements would cycle on a lot more and run for a longer period of time.
Since one is at the top of the tank and the other is at the bottom the amount of hot water available is definitely decreased so I thought it made sense that the elements would be on for a longer period of time since the bottom eleemnt preheats for the top.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
stickboy1375 said:
That was the last one I saw. The pressure switch was set below what the pump could produce. They had a well pump running continuously for over two years, before they finally decided they needed to figure out why they were paying $500 electric bills.
ItsHot
Senior Member
- Location
- A little piece of heaven!
2 elements
2 elements
2 elements
This is incorrect. If this was true the standard heater would only have one element. Even know the elements are not energized at the same time, the are both required to be more effecient.gar said:
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
George Stolz said:That was the last one I saw. The pressure switch was set below what the pump could produce. They had a well pump running continuously for over two years, before they finally decided they needed to figure out why they were paying $500 electric bills.
I'm really impressed the pump held out that long....
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Me too. I was not impressed when the pump company only comp'ed the pump, and not the labor to get it installed. I had recommended the customer go for the throat, I thought it was a pretty horrible mistake on the pump installer's part.
They apparently didn't verify the pump shut off. :roll:
They apparently didn't verify the pump shut off. :roll:
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
George Stolz said:
I wired a a Pumptec Control box once for a well company, the thing kept on tripping out, so I had the HO call the well company for a replacement, went to the job the next day and the well guys were walking out the door, I asked what the problem was and the guy said it was all set....
i was curious so I opened it up and all they did was bypass the control... :roll: The HO wasn't exactly pleased and I made some new friends... :grin:
gobblerhuntr
Member
post 2 nailed it right on the head, I do this often as I investigate these for the poco I work for.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
stickboy1375 said:
CL&P...17 cents a KwHr. Gee, why is my electric bill so high?
Last couple of calls I had for that were billing errors. The POCO had the meter number and address mixed up. I'ld confirm the meter number on the bill and make sure they are not getting charged for the the next door neighbors electric use.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080803-1000 EST
ItsHot:
In physics you should have learned about temperature rise of substances and energy, thermal capacity.
For water under standard pressure conditions the thermal capacity ranges from 1.00652 @1 deg C to 0.99799 @38 deg C to 1.0000 @ 65 C to 1.00669 @ 99 C. The units are calories/gram/deg C. Within the range from just above freezing to just below boiling it is essentially 1.00. Whether the energy is put in fast or slow does not change this physical property. KWH is a measure of energy as is calorie.
It takes 1 BTU of energy to raise 1# of water 1 deg F. One gallon of water is 8.337 #. Thus, 8.337 BTUs increases 1 gallon of water 1 deg F. One BTU = 0.000,2931 KWH and thus, 0.00244 KWH are required to raise 1 gallon 1 deg F. If your incoming water is 50 and it is raised to 120, then 70*0.00244 = 0.171 KWH per gallon to heat the input water to 120 deg. If you have 50 gallons that are used in one shower, then that shower cost 8.55 KWH or at 0.12/KWH = $1.02 . This excludes conducted and radiated losses from the tank.
Now suppose you maintained the water in that tank at 120 deg all day and withdrew no water and measured the KWH input to the tank for the day. Then you would have a measure of the heat loss and could define a thermal resistance for the tank as a whole. This assumes that the ambient air around the tank was at an approximately constant value. A reasonable assumption.
If this measurement was made and you have an estimate of the number of gallons of hot water used per day, then an overally measure of the efficiency of the hot water system can be made. Greater insulation around a tank will improve the overall efficiency.
Dennis:
More details of the exact failure, temperatures at the top and bottom, and the KWH input under the correct working conditions and the failed mode would be needed to determine why the cost would be higher if one heater failed.
I can not play with an electric water heater because I use gas.
.
ItsHot:
In physics you should have learned about temperature rise of substances and energy, thermal capacity.
For water under standard pressure conditions the thermal capacity ranges from 1.00652 @1 deg C to 0.99799 @38 deg C to 1.0000 @ 65 C to 1.00669 @ 99 C. The units are calories/gram/deg C. Within the range from just above freezing to just below boiling it is essentially 1.00. Whether the energy is put in fast or slow does not change this physical property. KWH is a measure of energy as is calorie.
It takes 1 BTU of energy to raise 1# of water 1 deg F. One gallon of water is 8.337 #. Thus, 8.337 BTUs increases 1 gallon of water 1 deg F. One BTU = 0.000,2931 KWH and thus, 0.00244 KWH are required to raise 1 gallon 1 deg F. If your incoming water is 50 and it is raised to 120, then 70*0.00244 = 0.171 KWH per gallon to heat the input water to 120 deg. If you have 50 gallons that are used in one shower, then that shower cost 8.55 KWH or at 0.12/KWH = $1.02 . This excludes conducted and radiated losses from the tank.
Now suppose you maintained the water in that tank at 120 deg all day and withdrew no water and measured the KWH input to the tank for the day. Then you would have a measure of the heat loss and could define a thermal resistance for the tank as a whole. This assumes that the ambient air around the tank was at an approximately constant value. A reasonable assumption.
If this measurement was made and you have an estimate of the number of gallons of hot water used per day, then an overally measure of the efficiency of the hot water system can be made. Greater insulation around a tank will improve the overall efficiency.
Dennis:
More details of the exact failure, temperatures at the top and bottom, and the KWH input under the correct working conditions and the failed mode would be needed to determine why the cost would be higher if one heater failed.
I can not play with an electric water heater because I use gas.
.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The reason for two elements is for faster initial hot water. The upper element heats less water faster, but if you're not in a hurry, the lower element can heat the whole tank as fast as the usual 'upper element first/lower element second' cycle.
Because heat rises and the cold enters at the bottom, the lower element usually does most of the work. Only when hot water is used faster than the lower element can keep up with does the upper element take over. That is what fast recovery is.
Because heat rises and the cold enters at the bottom, the lower element usually does most of the work. Only when hot water is used faster than the lower element can keep up with does the upper element take over. That is what fast recovery is.
- Status