Journeyman certification... How?

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madpenguin

Member
First, thanks for bearing with me folks. I seem to be extremely confused as to the process of becoming a "Journeyman" electrician, what ever that means (apparently not much).

I am starting my 2nd year of the AEC-IEC Electrical apprenticeship program. It's a 4 year program. I've talked extensively with the "Executive Director" of my local chapter and I was still left with many questions. For the sake of not frustrating her anymore than I already did, I cut our conversation short with many unanswered questions on my mind.

I live in Ohio. I was told that there is no "Journeyman's" test to take but yet I see and hear of Journeyman "card holders" all the time.

The AEC-IEC is recognized with the Ohio Department of Job & Family Services "Ohio State Apprenticeship Council".

http://jfs.ohio.gov/apprenticeship/

In order to complete the IEC "program", I need 144 hours of classroom training and 2000 OJT hours per year for 4 years. I am falling WAY behind in my OJT hours because of this damn recession. I am continuing my classroom education regardless of my OJT status. I consider the knowledge I've been gaining worth the time and money by itself.

Is there even such a thing as a "Journeyman Electrician's exam" and if there is, how is one supposed to be recognized as a "Journeyman Electrician" in a state that apparently has no such exam?

From what I've been told, If I gain a total of 5 years experience (10k hours OJT, recorded and documented by the labor board), there is an "Electrical Contractor's" exam to take. Not quite interested in that as of yet. I assume you would want/need that in order to start your own business and to pull permits. $1.5k annual renewal fees and what not.

Can anyone set me straight on what's what? I don't think I've ever been as confused about anything as I am now...

Thanks for bearing with me and I appreciate any and all responses. How does one become a "Journeyman Card holder". I want to be able to travel to any state and be recognized as a "certified?" electrician, or if that's an incorrect term, a "Journeyman Electrician".... Oi, I am sooooooooo confused.... :-?
 
B

buddhakii

Senior Member
Location
Littleton, CO
Every state has their own requirements to become a licensed electrician. Some states have no licenseing regulations at all. Some states reciprocate with others after you have your license. For instance, if I have a journeyman electrician license in Nebraska I can apply and recieve one in Colorado without having to test for it. I don't know what Ohio regulations require or if they reciprocate with any other state, but I'm sure that information would be easy to find. I started my career in Nebraska ten years ago and back then you had to do 4 years of a state accredited apprecticeship with so many hours of ojt. Then after that I was allowed to take the state journeyman electrician exam. I move to Colorado three years ago and all I had to do was send in my application with my Nebraska license number and they sent me back a Colorado license.
 
M

madpenguin

Member
Thanks for the info. I assume when you talk about a "license" you mean a full blown EC license? Or would this still be a "Journeyman's" license?

Confusing stuff if you ask me but then again I'm new to all this. All I want is to be recognized as a "qualified" electrician with a paper/certification/training to back it up.

If Ohio doesn't issue a "Journeyman's License" then I'm not sure how you are supposed to apprentice because I thought all apprentices had to have a supervising "Journeyman Electrician" on site....

Any more info would be most welcome and in the mean time I'll continue to google.
 
T

thosey

Member
Journeyman Card

Journeyman Card

Madpenguin, no there are no tests for Journeyman certificate (Card) holders in Ohio. I hold an Electical Journeyman card in Ohio, specificaly for Electrician, Maintenance. Now I oversee our plants Journeyman apprentice programs and am the one that signs off for other individuals for having the correct number of hours and classes or previous credit. In Ohio contractors are required to test in the community or county that they work in for a license. Work done inside a plant needs no permit. If it did then you would be pulling permits daily and lets face it if a plant is paying out the butt for permits then they will move. I have never encountered a county that even attempts to force factories into obtaining a permit to move equipment. Anyway back to the Journeyman question. What you do need is a sponsor. Without a sponser you can not get a Journeyman certificate throught the DOL. By the way all certificates for Journeyman are registered via the Federal DOL. To find a sponsor to apply with you can try the following website and put in the state and county. It will list all sponsors that have Journeyman apprentice programs in the country and US Territories like Guam and the Virgin Islands.

http://oa.doleta.gov/bat.cfm

Other states have differnt ways of going about this. But in the end a Journeyman card should be accepted by all states since it is a federal document issued by the DOL. You do have options to file grievances if you think that a state has wronged you. A good rule of thumb is if you have a Card then you can Journey or be hired easily into any factory in the US. If you want to be a contractor then the state may ask for you to take a test. Some states have recipricating tests allowing you not to have to test in a state that acknowledges another state.
Some persons may have grievence with what I state below and might make a mountain from a mole hill but one of the reasons that the Federal goverment runs the Apprenticeship is to ensure that everyone has comparable studies and work. In the end the program is to highlight safety, pride and ethics to protect the person doing the work and those surronding that person and the users that will use the end result.
Check out the website above and it will help you find a sponsor.
 
D

diana_black

Member
Journeyman Card question-electrical

Journeyman Card question-electrical

Resistance,

I came across the discussion you had with Madpenquin and was as confused about the journeyman card.

I appreciate all the information you supplied. I was wondering if you could answer another one of my questions.

First, I should give you some background info: I worked for Ford Motor Co in Ohio and completed the 4yr industrial Electrician Apprenticeship Program. I have my certificates from Ford/UAW and State of Ohio of completion. When Ford was downsizing and wanting people to take a buyout, I chose to leave under the educational buyout.

I had not applied for a journeyman card before I left because, I, too, was confused about the journeyman card issue and thought all I needed was to complete my apprenticeship and have the certificates.

Is there anyway I will be able to apply for a journeyman card now? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
 
M

madpenguin

Member
@ diana_black, it is confusing, no? Especially when someone says this:

thosey said:
Madpenguin, no there are no tests for Journeyman certificate (Card) holders in Ohio. I hold an Electical Journeyman card in Ohio,
Click to expand...

Those 2 sentences are in direct conflict. So.... Um. Does the State of Ohio just hand you a "Journeymans Card" once you complete the requirements? I've been told at my chapter there is no such thing as a journeymens card in ohio. Or a journeymens test. Not sure.

Apparently my XO/ED at my chapter stumbled upon this thread, to which we had a long talk about, and I'm still no closer to knowing the truth about what is and what isn't required to be a so called "journeyman electrician"....

The state of Ohio tells me there is no time limit to complete your OJT hours. AEC-IEC is telling me there is a 5 year limit (but they are willing to work with you beyond that, but not by much). If the AEC-IEC is a federally and state recognized apprenticeship program, how can you have 2 disparate views on OJT time limit requirements?

My current instructor just told me last class that it took one of his students 7 years to get his OJT requirements but my XO is unaware of this and holds fast to a 5 year limit. That's just not happening with this housing market. Most EC's have switched to commercial/industrial because of it and to top it all off, companies are laying off, not hiring.

To anyone wishing to pursue this trade I suggest you spend copious amounts of time getting the facts and then making sure all parties involved know the facts and are in complete agreement as to the requirements to become a journeyman electrician.

To make things a little more confusing, The State of New Hampshire has the same requirements as Ohio (576 classroom hours and 8000 hours OJT) but the New England IEC chapter in Connecticut handles things differently as does the state of NH. I talked with the New England IEC director and he told me that the requirements depend upon which state you live/work in.

If I were to attend the IEC New England Chapter in Hartford (and live/work in Connecticut), I have 4 years MAX to complete classroom hours AND 8000 OJT hours, otherwise your screwed and have to start all over.

But then, he told me if I were to live in NH and commute every week to Hartford for classes and I worked for an EC in NH, You are bound by the requirements of the Apprenticeship Counsel of New Hamshire (and the New England chapter honors NH's requirements). I called the New Hampshire Apprenticeship Counsel. 576 hours of classroom training and 8000 hours OJT and NO TIME LIMIT ON COMPLETING YOUR OJT.

I was told directly that they FULLY recognize the construction industry is on it's knees right now, especially with regards to housing, and they told me it would be completely unrealistic to expect an apprentice to complete 8000 hours in 4 years time in todays recession. Not only was that point made but they also recognize that people may be working part time, going to school, have other obligations..... Whatever to the point that they can't get 40 hours a week for 4 years straight with no downtime what-so-ever.

A good percentage of my 2nd year classmates are either laid off or are not getting 40 hours a week.

Yes B.T, This is frustrating as hell. Takes me all year long to save up for my $1400 tuition only to be told "your gonna be screwed if you don't get a job soon." I'm startin' to get pretty salty over it.

I'll probably complete my 2nd year in Ohio and move to NH with my girlfriend and just commute twice a week to Hartford. Atleast there, the New England IEC chapter and the State of New Hampshire are in full agreement about what needs to happen.

</rant>
 
RJohnsonMasterElectrician

RJohnsonMasterElectrician

Senior Member
Location
Right now ??, previously VT
madpenguin said:
@ diana_black, it is confusing, no? Especially when someone says this:



Those 2 sentences are in direct conflict. So.... Um. Does the State of Ohio just hand you a "Journeymans Card" once you complete the requirements? I've been told at my chapter there is no such thing as a journeymens card in ohio. Or a journeymens test. Not sure.

Apparently my XO/ED at my chapter stumbled upon this thread, to which we had a long talk about, and I'm still no closer to knowing the truth about what is and what isn't required to be a so called "journeyman electrician"....

The state of Ohio tells me there is no time limit to complete your OJT hours. AEC-IEC is telling me there is a 5 year limit (but they are willing to work with you beyond that, but not by much). If the AEC-IEC is a federally and state recognized apprenticeship program, how can you have 2 disparate views on OJT time limit requirements?

My current instructor just told me last class that it took one of his students 7 years to get his OJT requirements but my XO is unaware of this and holds fast to a 5 year limit. That's just not happening with this housing market. Most EC's have switched to commercial/industrial because of it and to top it all off, companies are laying off, not hiring.

To anyone wishing to pursue this trade I suggest you spend copious amounts of time getting the facts and then making sure all parties involved know the facts and are in complete agreement as to the requirements to become a journeyman electrician.

To make things a little more confusing, The State of New Hampshire has the same requirements as Ohio (576 classroom hours and 8000 hours OJT) but the New England IEC chapter in Connecticut handles things differently as does the state of NH. I talked with the New England IEC director and he told me that the requirements depend upon which state you live/work in.

If I were to attend the IEC New England Chapter in Hartford (and live/work in Connecticut), I have 4 years MAX to complete classroom hours AND 8000 OJT hours, otherwise your screwed and have to start all over.

But then, he told me if I were to live in NH and commute every week to Hartford for classes and I worked for an EC in NH, You are bound by the requirements of the Apprenticeship Counsel of New Hamshire (and the New England chapter honors NH's requirements). I called the New Hampshire Apprenticeship Counsel. 576 hours of classroom training and 8000 hours OJT and NO TIME LIMIT ON COMPLETING YOUR OJT.

I was told directly that they FULLY recognize the construction industry is on it's knees right now, especially with regards to housing, and they told me it would be completely unrealistic to expect an apprentice to complete 8000 hours in 4 years time in todays recession. Not only was that point made but they also recognize that people may be working part time, going to school, have other obligations..... Whatever to the point that they can't get 40 hours a week for 4 years straight with no downtime what-so-ever.

A good percentage of my 2nd year classmates are either laid off or are not getting 40 hours a week.

Yes B.T, This is frustrating as hell. Takes me all year long to save up for my $1400 tuition only to be told "your gonna be screwed if you don't get a job soon." I'm startin' to get pretty salty over it.

I'll probably complete my 2nd year in Ohio and move to NH with my girlfriend and just commute twice a week to Hartford. Atleast there, the New England IEC chapter and the State of New Hampshire are in full agreement about what needs to happen.

</rant>
Click to expand...

And your NH license will recip. with VT and Maine, and it might even recip with MA.
 
M

madpenguin

Member
Yea, Calling the Common Wealth of Mass was next on my list seeing as how I would be in Derry, NH.

I'm not sure what advice to give to people if they are seeking to get into the trade and be recognized as a "qualified person", ie- journeyman. You've got the IBEW, IEC and probably a whole slew of others to choose from. Depends on whether you want to go union or not I guess.

Just make sure before you start that there are no loopholes or misinformation between all parties concerned and that you are dead clear on what needs to happen, or you'll wind up frustrated like me.
 
jrannis

jrannis

Senior Member
Location
Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
thosey said:
Madpenguin, no there are no tests for Journeyman certificate (Card) holders in Ohio. I hold an Electrical Journeyman card in Ohio, specifically for Electrician, Maintenance. Now I oversee our plants Journeyman apprentice programs and am the one that signs off for other individuals for having the correct number of hours and classes or previous credit. In Ohio contractors are required to test in the community or county that they work in for a license. Work done inside a plant needs no permit. If it did then you would be pulling permits daily and lets face it if a plant is paying out the butt for permits then they will move. I have never encountered a county that even attempts to force factories into obtaining a permit to move equipment. Anyway back to the Journeyman question. What you do need is a sponsor. Without a sponsor you can not get a Journeyman certificate throught the DOL. By the way all certificates for Journeyman are registered via the Federal DOL. To find a sponsor to apply with you can try the following website and put in the state and county. It will list all sponsors that have Journeyman apprentice programs in the country and US Territories like Guam and the Virgin Islands.

http://oa.doleta.gov/bat.cfm

Other states have different ways of going about this. But in the end a Journeyman card should be accepted by all states since it is a federal document issued by the DOL. You do have options to file grievances if you think that a state has wronged you. A good rule of thumb is if you have a Card then you can Journey or be hired easily into any factory in the US. If you want to be a contractor then the state may ask for you to take a test. Some states have reciprocating tests allowing you not to have to test in a state that acknowledges another state.
Some persons may have grievance with what I state below and might make a mountain from a mole hill but one of the reasons that the Federal government runs the Apprenticeship is to ensure that everyone has comparable studies and work. In the end the program is to highlight safety, pride and ethics to protect the person doing the work and those surrounding that person and the users that will use the end result.
Check out the website above and it will help you find a sponsor.
Click to expand...

This information is very misleading. There is no federal registration for Journeyman Electricians.
The IEC has nothing but a certificate to give you that is not recognized by all entities.
 
P

plugged-in

Member
Misleading information about journeyman certification

Misleading information about journeyman certification

First, it is true that there is no national registry for journeymen electricians. That is because there is no single finite definition of the term ?journeyman electrician?. The term ?journeyman? is defined differently by various employers, national organizations, and state, local and federal agencies in terms of required education and on-the-job training. These organizations then apply their definition to whatever journeyman recognition or licensing requirement that they establish. Such requirements might include evidence of completion of a formal apprenticeship program, on-the-job experience only, classroom training only, or successful completion of a test.

The most widely used definition was developed by the U.S. Department of Labor. According to the Title 29, Part 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations, the term ?journeyworker? means a ?worker who has obtained a level of skill, abilities, and competencies recognized within an industry as having mastered the skills and competencies required for the occupation. (Use of the term may also refer to a mentor, technician, specialist or other skilled worker who has documented sufficient skills and knowledge of an occupation, either through formal apprenticeship or through practical on-the-job experience and formal training).? (The term journeyman has been discontinued). Based on this definition, then, it is the industry that establishes the required level of skill, abilities, and competencies.

National organizations such as the Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC), and the National Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee for the Electrical Industry (NJATC) conduct formal registered apprenticeship programs in accordance with the requirements of the U.S. Department of Labor. Each of these organizations issues certificates to individuals that successfully complete the related technical instruction and on-the-job training requirements of their apprenticeship and are ready to move into journeyworker status. In addition, certificates indicating an individual?s completion of their apprenticeship training will also be issued by the U.S. Department of Labor?s Office of Apprenticeship and/or State Apprenticeship Agency responsible for registering the apprentice.

Some organizations, such as IEC, go one step further and have had their programs reviewed for college credit equivalency through the American Council on Education (ACE). Graduates of IEC?s registered apprenticeship program may be eligible for up to 37 hours of credit toward an associates or bachelor?s degree.

That being said, quality of paper aside, it should be evident that an apprenticeship certificate of completion from IEC provides the graduate with valuable evidence of his/her training for presentation to potential employers, licensing jurisdictions, and college admission offices.
 
jrannis

jrannis

Senior Member
Location
Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
plugged-in said:
First, it is true that there is no national registry for journeymen electricians. :roll: BINGO!


Some organizations, such as IEC, go one step further and have had their programs reviewed for college credit equivalency through the American Council on Education (ACE). Graduates of IEC?s registered apprenticeship program may be eligible for up to 37 hours of credit toward an associates or bachelor?s degree.

JATC:
The American Council on Education (ACE) has evaluated all four of the NJATC apprenticeship programs. The Inside Apprenticeship Program evaluation has been performed and awarded up to 60 semester credit hours,:grin: the Outside Apprenticeship Program has been awarded 25 semester credit hours, the Residential Apprenticeship Program has been awarded 17 semester credit hours and the Telecommunications Installer-Technician Apprenticeship Program has been awarded 37 semester credit hours.


.
Click to expand...

Unless you are the lead dog, the view never changes!
 
resistance

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
diana_black said:
Resistance,

I came across the discussion you had with Madpenquin and was as confused about the journeyman card.

I appreciate all the information you supplied. I was wondering if you could answer another one of my questions.

First, I should give you some background info: I worked for Ford Motor Co in Ohio and completed the 4yr industrial Electrician Apprenticeship Program. I have my certificates from Ford/UAW and State of Ohio of completion. When Ford was downsizing and wanting people to take a buyout, I chose to leave under the educational buyout.

I had not applied for a journeyman card before I left because, I, too, was confused about the journeyman card issue and thought all I needed was to complete my apprenticeship and have the certificates.

Is there anyway I will be able to apply for a journeyman card now? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm just now reading this. I'm no expert on your area, i just did the finger work to help the OP. I'm in Washington State.
 
jrannis

jrannis

Senior Member
Location
Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
jrannis said:
Unless you are the lead dog, the view never changes!
Click to expand...

It seems like, if a superior program in place that offers 50% more college level credits, why would you want to go broke re-inventing the wheel?:roll:

Worst of all, the IEC students have to pay for the classes while they are at an entry pay level.

It reminds me of one of those "for profit" colleges that are springing up all over the place selling worthless degrees for $30,000:mad:
 
westernexplorer

westernexplorer

Senior Member
jrannis said:
It seems like, if a superior program in place that offers 50% more college level credits, why would you want to go broke re-inventing the wheel?:roll:

Worst of all, the IEC students have to pay for the classes while they are at an entry pay level.

It reminds me of one of those "for profit" colleges that are springing up all over the place selling worthless degrees for $30,000:mad:
Click to expand...

I agree 1000%... Its like selling ice to the eskimos
 
F

fondini

Senior Member
Location
nw ohio
The state of Ohio has no journeyman test, only a contractors exam. The local unions and individual plants along with different cities require a written journeyman exam that only pertains to that entity. The contractors exam requires you have contractors experiance to take that exam,even though you cant pull permits without a contractors license.Yes its a screwed up state.
Just keep up your courses and record your hours,call Columbus and raise cain about recording hours if need be.It does change every once in awhile so stay informed. Best of luck
 
dmagyar

dmagyar

Senior Member
Location
Rocklin, Ca.
Journeymans "ticket"

Journeymans "ticket"

madpenguin said:
First, thanks for bearing with me folks. I seem to be extremely confused as to the process of becoming a "Journeyman" electrician, what ever that means (apparently not much).

I am starting my 2nd year of the AEC-IEC Electrical apprenticeship program. It's a 4 year program. I've talked extensively with the "Executive Director" of my local chapter and I was still left with many questions. For the sake of not frustrating her anymore than I already did, I cut our conversation short with many unanswered questions on my mind.

I live in Ohio. I was told that there is no "Journeyman's" test to take but yet I see and hear of Journeyman "card holders" all the time.

The AEC-IEC is recognized with the Ohio Department of Job & Family Services "Ohio State Apprenticeship Council".

http://jfs.ohio.gov/apprenticeship/

In order to complete the IEC "program", I need 144 hours of classroom training and 2000 OJT hours per year for 4 years. I am falling WAY behind in my OJT hours because of this damn recession. I am continuing my classroom education regardless of my OJT status. I consider the knowledge I've been gaining worth the time and money by itself.

Is there even such a thing as a "Journeyman Electrician's exam" and if there is, how is one supposed to be recognized as a "Journeyman Electrician" in a state that apparently has no such exam?

From what I've been told, If I gain a total of 5 years experience (10k hours OJT, recorded and documented by the labor board), there is an "Electrical Contractor's" exam to take. Not quite interested in that as of yet. I assume you would want/need that in order to start your own business and to pull permits. $1.5k annual renewal fees and what not.

Can anyone set me straight on what's what? I don't think I've ever been as confused about anything as I am now...

Thanks for bearing with me and I appreciate any and all responses. How does one become a "Journeyman Card holder". I want to be able to travel to any state and be recognized as a "certified?" electrician, or if that's an incorrect term, a "Journeyman Electrician".... Oi, I am sooooooooo confused.... :-?
Click to expand...

Madpenguin, I think what you've overheard is reference to the IBEW "Journeymans ticket" or "Journeymans Card". Once you obtain the necessary qualifications both in amount of time spent in both classes and on the job training, you then are allowed to take the journeymans exam. Passing that you then are classified a "Journeyman Electrician", "JW" or "Inside Wireman". By presenting this "ticket" at any IBEW local around the country you would be allowed to sign the out of work list, eventually gaining employement there, depending on how many are signed ahead of you and the supply of work.

I started out in 1970 in IBEW local # 58, Detroit, eventually ending up out in California.
 
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