Junctioning Home runs
- Thread starter bmac10
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Yes you can splice home runs.I have done this on many fire jobs.Sometimes they replace the entire roof trusses and all.As long as the boxes are accesible and meet box fill no problem with nec.On one house i had about 30 junction boxes.Howeverer if you started this job without a contract you might not get payed.And if it was my own house i would not accept this kind of work as it is a potintial problem maker.
Best add one more thing and thats that a permit is required
[ January 18, 2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Yes you can splice home runs.I have done this on many fire jobs.Sometimes they replace the entire roof trusses and all.As long as the boxes are accesible and meet box fill no problem with nec.On one house i had about 30 junction boxes.Howeverer if you started this job without a contract you might not get payed.And if it was my own house i would not accept this kind of work as it is a potintial problem maker.
Best add one more thing and thats that a permit is required
[ January 18, 2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
It's fine to JB homeruns. We do this as a common way to achieve a neat panel on heavy-ups. We place a 10x10 or 12x12 JB at the location of the old, small panel and a short 2 inch nipple to the new panel directly adjacent (less then 24 inches to avoid derating and fill problems). We then have all clean new THHN wires of the proper colors (black, red and white) for residential phases and neutrals in the new panel. We place a ground bar in the JB and size the EGC for the largest OCPD feeding the box (actually we usually use #4 because we have it on hand for the GEC and the extra size is low cost on the short run).
The percieved problem that comes to mind is the splicing of individual branch circuits (A/C, range, etc.)., but a splice is not an outlet, so these remain individual branch circuits.
It's fine to JB homeruns. We do this as a common way to achieve a neat panel on heavy-ups. We place a 10x10 or 12x12 JB at the location of the old, small panel and a short 2 inch nipple to the new panel directly adjacent (less then 24 inches to avoid derating and fill problems). We then have all clean new THHN wires of the proper colors (black, red and white) for residential phases and neutrals in the new panel. We place a ground bar in the JB and size the EGC for the largest OCPD feeding the box (actually we usually use #4 because we have it on hand for the GEC and the extra size is low cost on the short run).
The percieved problem that comes to mind is the splicing of individual branch circuits (A/C, range, etc.)., but a splice is not an outlet, so these remain individual branch circuits.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Junctioning Home runs
We do not live in a perfect world.As an electrician in your lifetime of wiring you will make over a million splices or more.Does anyone want to say they never made a bad one.Adding splices in an attic is likely to cause someone a headache some day.If you want an extra few hundred splices in your attic your welcome to them.A few days ago with some extra time on my hands i tried something we recently had a thread on.Without pretwisting 2 #12 wires i applied a red wing nut and tightened as hard as i could,then removed the nut.While some twisting remained , it was far less than i like to see.I will remain a twister.How much will a bad connection in an attic cost to repair ? I feel like i cheated the home owner if because of a fire they now end up with a wiring system full of extra splices because the insurance company did not want to rewire the intire house.They are mislead to think its good as new.
We do not live in a perfect world.As an electrician in your lifetime of wiring you will make over a million splices or more.Does anyone want to say they never made a bad one.Adding splices in an attic is likely to cause someone a headache some day.If you want an extra few hundred splices in your attic your welcome to them.A few days ago with some extra time on my hands i tried something we recently had a thread on.Without pretwisting 2 #12 wires i applied a red wing nut and tightened as hard as i could,then removed the nut.While some twisting remained , it was far less than i like to see.I will remain a twister.How much will a bad connection in an attic cost to repair ? I feel like i cheated the home owner if because of a fire they now end up with a wiring system full of extra splices because the insurance company did not want to rewire the intire house.They are mislead to think its good as new.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Jim,
Huh? Why would the number of splices be an issue? :roll: Unless the electrician is a complete unqualified hack, a million properly made splices will never cause a problem.
What about commercial jobs where there are thousand of splices?
Splicing is so fundamental that if an electrician can't make a splice that isn't going to melt down, they should get out of the trade immediately.
Jim,
Huh? Why would the number of splices be an issue? :roll: Unless the electrician is a complete unqualified hack, a million properly made splices will never cause a problem.
What about commercial jobs where there are thousand of splices?
Splicing is so fundamental that if an electrician can't make a splice that isn't going to melt down, they should get out of the trade immediately.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
I would have to agree with Peter. The average home has a few hundred wirenuts. Does another 50 really matter.
I forgot to mention that although our JB method for heavy-ups provices a "neat" panel, the best reason for this is to avoid splices in the service panel. These splices are particularly troubling because they share the same enclosure with unprotected conductors (the mains).
Mark
I would have to agree with Peter. The average home has a few hundred wirenuts. Does another 50 really matter.
I forgot to mention that although our JB method for heavy-ups provices a "neat" panel, the best reason for this is to avoid splices in the service panel. These splices are particularly troubling because they share the same enclosure with unprotected conductors (the mains).
Mark
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Are you going to say you never found a bad splice.Maybe you havn't done many service calls.
If splices never go bad ,why can't we cover up them junction boxes
[ January 19, 2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Are you going to say you never found a bad splice.Maybe you havn't done many service calls.
If splices never go bad ,why can't we cover up them junction boxes
[ January 19, 2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Perhaps with the intent to add or remove circuits, troubleshoot and test a electrical system, but as far as anticipation of "bad splices" I doubt that was the original intent of not wanting to cover junction boxes.Originally posted by jimwalker:
If splices never go bad ,why can't we cover up them junction boxes
Re: Junctioning Home runs
I believe that learning can be done by listening to different perspectives ....in this case the perspectives are quite apart from each other but the point is that there is something to be learned .
You can "chime in " with what you choose to but it sounds like you place your self on a pedestal and have a over inflated opinion of yourself.
It think debates like this while simple in nature do help others to learn , perhaps go beyond what they thought was right in the first place .
This forum is a great place to learn and its topics just like this that dis-spell myths and perhaps open some eyes to different ways of how things are done, I would not discourage this type of ( call it arguing if you choose ) debate just because you place yourself above such matters.
I believe that learning can be done by listening to different perspectives ....in this case the perspectives are quite apart from each other but the point is that there is something to be learned .
You can "chime in " with what you choose to but it sounds like you place your self on a pedestal and have a over inflated opinion of yourself.
It think debates like this while simple in nature do help others to learn , perhaps go beyond what they thought was right in the first place .
This forum is a great place to learn and its topics just like this that dis-spell myths and perhaps open some eyes to different ways of how things are done, I would not discourage this type of ( call it arguing if you choose ) debate just because you place yourself above such matters.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
if it makes you feel better, buy some din rail mounted terminals and put them in the jbox and use them to make the connections. you can get them for less then 30 cents a piece these days.
they have grounding blocks too where the terminal is directly conencted to the din rail. great for making an impromptu ground bar.
me either. having had to find splices in control panels that have come loose, and caused all kinds of unpleasent things to happen (and been hell to find as well), i have speced "NO SPLICES".Originally posted by physis:
I can't beleive you guys are even arguing about this
if it makes you feel better, buy some din rail mounted terminals and put them in the jbox and use them to make the connections. you can get them for less then 30 cents a piece these days.
they have grounding blocks too where the terminal is directly conencted to the din rail. great for making an impromptu ground bar.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Junctioning Home runs
You can take it personal if you want.
Alright, I essentially agree with everyone. If I had a choise I would opt to not put junction boxes in the attic. If I didn't have a choise I wouldn't loose any sleep over putting them in the attic.
Splices do fail. There could be different reasons for it, but it's true. And it's also true that if they're done correctly you likely wont have a problem with them for 30 years or more.
I don't disagree with you about the value of debate either.
I only thought it was funny, that's all. I'm not judging anybody. And I don't think that highly of myself. I might give myself a 3 on code knowledge.
Editted to address drg, you snuck in on me Bob.
[ January 20, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
You can take it personal if you want.
Alright, I essentially agree with everyone. If I had a choise I would opt to not put junction boxes in the attic. If I didn't have a choise I wouldn't loose any sleep over putting them in the attic.
Splices do fail. There could be different reasons for it, but it's true. And it's also true that if they're done correctly you likely wont have a problem with them for 30 years or more.
I don't disagree with you about the value of debate either.
I only thought it was funny, that's all. I'm not judging anybody. And I don't think that highly of myself. I might give myself a 3 on code knowledge.
Editted to address drg, you snuck in on me Bob.
[ January 20, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Re: Junctioning Home runs
From an engineering perspective, "every connection point is a potential point of error". This applies from mV up to kV applications.
Din rails are a mounting system for small electrical components within enclosures. (E.g. terminal blocks, PLCs., control modules, contactors, fuse blocks, breakers)
Just my 2 cents.
C
[ January 20, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: mic ]
From an engineering perspective, "every connection point is a potential point of error". This applies from mV up to kV applications.
Din rails are a mounting system for small electrical components within enclosures. (E.g. terminal blocks, PLCs., control modules, contactors, fuse blocks, breakers)
Just my 2 cents.
C
[ January 20, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: mic ]
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: Junctioning Home runs
And I think this one could be summarized by one word - workmanship.
Ed
I think "arguments" are good.
And I think this one could be summarized by one word - workmanship.Not trying to "place myself above such matters" but I have always expected my own connections to last as long as the wire itself.
Ed
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