Looking for opinions. Replacing a MCC bucket. Does article 130 & FPN No. 2justification for live work "infeasible due to equipment design ... integral part of a continious process" cover this. The MCC has equipment that is part of a contunious process and there is no way to isolate the buss other than taking down the entire MCC? Opinions and comments welcomed.
Justification for live work
- Thread starter cornbread
- Start date
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- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
What document are you citing? The NEC does not have an article 130. :-?
- Location
- Massachusetts
If someone was injured or killed would the justification for working live seem reasonable?
If the process can not have a planed shut down what will happen if it is shutdown without notice and may not be able to be re-energized for some time?
If the process can not have a planed shut down what will happen if it is shutdown without notice and may not be able to be re-energized for some time?
billsnuff
Senior Member
- Location
- East of 480sparky
doesn't sound like diagnostics or testing.........
will shutting down the entire MCC create a greater hazard than live work?
or is it just a big pain?
The hazard of shutting down had better be greater than working live. JMSHO
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
there's others on here much better versed on this than i, but it appears the
intent in hot work restrictions is to only allow hot work when it would be
more dangerous to turn the power off, than to leave it on.
i gotta suspicion replacing the bucket in question doesn't meet that test....
Normally I would agree with your statement, however given I work at a chemical plant we have unique situations. I'm personally not qualified to determine what is the greater risk (shutting down the process or installing a MCC bucket). Our electrcial group provides management with our assessemt of the electrcial risk, the mfg engineers provide the chemical side of the risk. Given MCC are designed as a plug and play. When we evaluate the risk of installing a MCC bucket with proper PPE, (gloves & arc flash gear) the level of risk is not vey high.
billsnuff
Senior Member
- Location
- East of 480sparky
I wouldn't hang my hat on a fine print note.
can you demonstrate that deenergizing increases the risk?
can you demonstrate that due to equipment design, that it can't be shut down?
has a Risk/Hazard assessment been done?
is there in place a program that provides for a breifing and an energized work permit?
are there trained first responders on sight, within 4 minutes?
if the answer to any of the above is no, i wouldn't do it, but that's me.
can you demonstrate that deenergizing increases the risk?
can you demonstrate that due to equipment design, that it can't be shut down?
has a Risk/Hazard assessment been done?
is there in place a program that provides for a breifing and an energized work permit?
are there trained first responders on sight, within 4 minutes?
if the answer to any of the above is no, i wouldn't do it, but that's me.
As I stated earlier I'm not qualified to determine the risk assocaited with shutting down the process. The risk/hazard anaysis is done based on the info provide by the electrcial group and mfg engineers. We do use a electrical hot work permit, job briefings, written SOP's and trained responder are required to install a MCC bucket.
boboelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Eighty Four,Pa.15330
Overtime an issue?
billsnuff
Senior Member
- Location
- East of 480sparky
I didn't see this post until after I replied. It sounds like you are covering the bases. With that said, all I can add is 'God's Speed'.
To follow up, we filled out the work permit and had our operation manager and safety guy sign on the dotted line. Our shop forman conducted the job briefing and the MCC bucket was installed. On a side note, following guidelines in NFPA 70E elevated the safety awareness. Some of the complaints I keep hearing from the electrcial guys is "NFPA70E is to cumbersom to work with....it take too much time...do you want me to work or spend all day getting forms filled out". In this case it took all of 1/2 hr to get the form filled out and signed off. I'm hear to say 70E can work if you give it a chance.
weressl
Esteemed Member
Be safe, don't leave your home
Be safe, don't leave your home
This is where it gets REALLY crazy.
The plug-in feature of MCC's were DEVELOPED so that we can swap them without needing to shut the whole MCC off. The feature is at consdierable expense to the industry. Now all that is just taken away because the 70E decided that it will be no longer safe. This is crazier than taxes.....
OSHA would not touch it because - as a Government entity - they would had to show the cost benefit to impose the additional burden on industry. But NFPA isn't so it can be highjacked by any earthnicks. Sometimes I wonder where all these efforts originate from that is clearly intent on choking the US industry and productivity. For tha past 50-80 years a practice was acceptable and now it is deadly? (If the Soviets were still around, I would suspect them, as clear link was found between the Greeen Movement financing and KGB, alas they are no longer around.)
Be safe, don't leave your home
This is where it gets REALLY crazy.
The plug-in feature of MCC's were DEVELOPED so that we can swap them without needing to shut the whole MCC off. The feature is at consdierable expense to the industry. Now all that is just taken away because the 70E decided that it will be no longer safe. This is crazier than taxes.....
OSHA would not touch it because - as a Government entity - they would had to show the cost benefit to impose the additional burden on industry. But NFPA isn't so it can be highjacked by any earthnicks. Sometimes I wonder where all these efforts originate from that is clearly intent on choking the US industry and productivity. For tha past 50-80 years a practice was acceptable and now it is deadly? (If the Soviets were still around, I would suspect them, as clear link was found between the Greeen Movement financing and KGB, alas they are no longer around.)
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
This is where it gets REALLY crazy.
The plug-in feature of MCC's were DEVELOPED so that we can swap them without needing to shut the whole MCC off. The feature is at consdierable expense to the industry. Now all that is just taken away because the 70E decided that it will be no longer safe. This is crazier than taxes.....
)
I want to see the U-Tube movie!
OP: I guess you slid the MCC into postion and then used Bus Bar overlaps.
Gezz, whats the potential difference there... Whistle! :wink:
weressl
Esteemed Member
if whatever they are doing is SO important it cant be turned off, that process is making them enough money where they can buy you a remote racking robot
Unfrotunately it does not exist for MCC's.
Cow
Senior Member
- Location
- Eastern Oregon
- Occupation
- Electrician
Is this any different than installing a breaker in a live panel(which is done all the time)? With the right PPE is this even legal or technically does the panel have to be shutdown no matter what too?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Eaton has new line of "flashgard" MMCs out that are designed and tested for cubicle installation and removal with Cat 0 or 1 protection.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
- Status