Kitchen GFI's

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PeteHJ

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Our electrical engineering involves mostly school and most of the schools have kitchens. I visited one of the sites with the contractor who brought to my attention a problem which he hoped I could resolve.

A double wide freezer was pluged into a double wide reachin freezer. Our drawings indicated a 20 amp GFI for the freezer circuit. The GFI tripped causing the food inside to defrost. The school district sent an invoice to the contractor for replacement of the food.

We designed the circuit and specified that all 15 and 20 amp receptacles in the kitchen be GFI type in accordance with 2005 NEC (2007 CEC in California), article 210.8 (B)(2). I told the contractor that there were no exceptions given for kitchen receptacles.

What do we do? The circuit required for the freezer is 20 amps, single phase.
 
Going the 'hard-wired' route is simply bypassing the intent of the Code..... to make things safe.

If the unit is tripping the GFCI, there's a reason.... and it's usually a ground fault.

"Hard-wiring" it does nothing to address the ground fault, which could hurt or kill someone.
 
iwire said:
Tell the school district the freezer unit needs repair.
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Agreed. And while you are at it, tell the contractor to return the invoice unpaid, with a note saying that (1) The installation complied with code requirements, and (2) The cause of the loss of food was faulty kitchen equipment. If you wish, you can also give them a proposal for engineering services to design an alarm system that would page the maintenance personnel if the circuit were to trip again.
 
charlie b said:
Agreed. And while you are at it, tell the contractor to return the invoice unpaid, with a note saying that (1) The installation complied with code requirements, and (2) The cause of the loss of food was faulty kitchen equipment. If you wish, you can also give them a proposal for engineering services to design an alarm system that would page the maintenance personnel if the circuit were to trip again.
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I agree with all of the above answers.
 
iwire said:
Tell the school district the freezer unit needs repair.
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Agree

480sparky said:
Going the 'hard-wired' route is simply bypassing the intent of the Code..... to make things safe.

If the unit is tripping the GFCI, there's a reason.... and it's usually a ground fault.

"Hard-wiring" it does nothing to address the ground fault, which could hurt or kill someone.
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Agreed

charlie b said:
Agreed. And while you are at it, tell the contractor to return the invoice unpaid, with a note saying that (1) The installation complied with code requirements, and (2) The cause of the loss of food was faulty kitchen equipment. If you wish, you can also give them a proposal for engineering services to design an alarm system that would page the maintenance personnel if the circuit were to trip again.
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And agreed again
 
A ground fault should not hurt anyone as long as the EGC is connected correctly. Most of the code GFCI protection rules are for cord and plug connected equipment and not hard wired equipment because a failure of the grounding path is much more likely with cord and plug connected equipment than it is with hard wired equipment.
 
Hendrix said:
Is everyone just building their post count here? If you agree, just let it be. If you don't agree, then you should rebut.
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I always laugh when people bring up 'post counts'.

There is no prize for high post counts and high post counts mean nothing except a lot of spare time.
 
charlie b said:
Agreed. And while you are at it, tell the contractor to return the invoice unpaid, with a note saying that (1) The installation complied with code requirements, and (2) The cause of the loss of food was faulty kitchen equipment. If you wish, you can also give them a proposal for engineering services to design an alarm system that would page the maintenance personnel if the circuit were to trip again.
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Always thinking that Charlie! ;)
 
Hendrix said:
Is everyone just building their post count here? If you agree, just let it be. If you don't agree, then you should rebut.
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No if I were doing that I would be in the 10's of thousands because I have been around here since the forum started prior to 2003 when it was the old forum. So my 600 some odd posts does not matter to me.

In addition to that when peopl ask for opinions it is helpfull to see others agree. If one person responds and 100 people agree and only one posts than how does the OP get a sense of how accurate that one post is. If 100 people agree and post then odds are its a good answer.

Do you disagree with any of that?
 
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mikeames said:
In addition to that when peopl ask for opinions it is helpfull to see others agree. If one person responds and 100 people agree and only one posts than how does the OP get a sense of how accurate that one post is. If 100 people agree and post then odds are its a good answer.
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I will also add that I have been involved in threads in which no senior experienced member chimes in.

It would be me and few other junior grades trying to figure out something, but are not positive we are right or not.

I have actually PMed senior members more than once and asked them to post and give direction. All were gracious and helped out.
 
iwire said:
I always laugh when people bring up 'post counts'.

There is no prize for high post counts and high post counts mean nothing except a lot of spare time.
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I bet you wish there was a prize (at this time your count is 38,326) might not be the highest but you have to be a contender. As far spare time goes, I won't comment on that :roll:

I agree the freezer or refer is the culprit. There are units available that you plug in that will dial out for power outage, high room temps, entry alarms, etc. I don't remember who makes them, I think it's "sense a phone", but sprint used them at all their remote sites. Very easy to install, all you need is a phone line and plug them in, program them and your good to go. They even tell you what the alarm is caused by.
 
Hendrix said:
Is everyone just building their post count here? If you agree, just let it be. If you don't agree, then you should rebut.
Click to expand...

A lot of people who just said "I agree" have well respected opinions on this forum. I know if I have a question I'm really torn about I would like to see all those same people weigh in even just to say they agree.
 
Charlie brought up a point I think should be pursued more by the engineers. A lot of schools have a computerized BMS or EMS system that is capable of handling quite a bit more than is usually sold. Freezer/cooler alarms, emergency generator alarms, high water alarms for storm water ejector systems, etc. A lot of customers and designers spend money for stuff they already have on site.
 
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