Kitchen Home Runs

[tonype]

Trying to get clariifcation on requried kitchen home runs. My understanding:

Dishwasher - Yes
Built in microwave - Yes
Range hood/light - Not sure (if it does, when did this become required?).
Garbage compactor - Yes?
Built-in Refrigerator (ala, Sub-Zero unit)- Yes?
Slide in refrigerator - No?
Built-in freezer - Yes?

As you can see, I am not sure on many of these.

 

[charlie b]

We are required to install two Small Appliance branch circuits in the kitchen. There are no other required circuits. So I do not understand what you are asking.

If there is wall space other than countertop space, then there must be receptacle outlets along the floor line. There must be at least one lighting outlet. But these need not be on a circuit that is dedicated to the kitchen.

It may be a good idea to put some of those loads you list on circuits of their own. But it is not an NEC requirement to do so.

 

[iwire]

Trying to get clarification on required kitchen home runs. My understanding:

Dishwasher - Yes Maybe, depends on the load.

Built in microwave - Yes Maybe, depends on the load.

Range hood/light - Not sure (if it does, when did this become required?). If it is a cord and plug connected range hood it is required to be on a individual circuit, if not maybe, depends on the load.

Garbage compactor - Yes? Maybe, depends on the load.

Built-in Refrigerator (ala, Sub-Zero unit)- Yes? Maybe, depends on the load.

Slide in refrigerator - No? Maybe, depends on the load.

Built-in freezer - Yes? Maybe, depends on the load.

 

[tonype]

It may be a good idea to put some of those loads you list on circuits of their own. But it is not an NEC requirement to do so.

Charlie:

Wow - I have always been under the impression that, as a minimum, dishwashers and built-in microwave ovens required home runs (I was not sure with the others).

I wonder where my mis-understanding originated (or has been fed by). I'm guessing that over the years I have heard a variety of people talk about being required to do the same (such as during a remodel).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Charlie:

Wow - I have always been under the impression that, as a minimum, dishwashers and built-in microwave ovens required home runs (I was not sure with the others).

I wonder where my mis-understanding originated (or has been fed by). I'm guessing that over the years I have heard a variety of people talk about being required to do the same (such as during a remodel).

Tony most of the built in microwaves installation instructions require an individual branch cir. Most require a 15 amp cir. Many other appliances also require separate cir per manufacturers instructions.

Check the appliance and then check 210.23(A)(1) & (2)

 

[charlie b]

If the manufacturer's instructions call for an individual branch circuit, then 110.3(B) will require us to follow those instructions. Otherwise, it depends on the load, as Bob and Dennis have said. But I see it as more of a "this winds up being the only workable option" situation, as opposed to "the code requires us to do this specific thing" situation.

For example, if you wanted to use a 15 amp circuit to supply the dishwasher (hard wired) and a disposal (plug & cord connected), and if the DW by itself drew 8 amps, then you would run afoul of 210.23(A)(2). You would have to look for another solution, and you may wind up giving each its own circuit, for failure to find a better way. That is not the same thing as saying that the code requires the DW to be on its own circuit.

 

[cloudymacleod]

well, if the stove/oven is gas, we will feed the stove and micro with a 20amp circuit, for the pig and dishwasher, we will run a 14/3, 15a circuit to them, they will be sharing a neutral. the refrig most of the time is on with the dining rm recept circuit wich is a 20a circuit. but it all depends on what each individual appliance draws.

 

[bkludecke]

On new custom homes around here it is common for us to be totally in the dark when it comes to roughing in for the kitchen appliances. Usually the homeowner hasn't gone shopping for appliances until it's time to install them. For that reason we usually run 3 sm appl countertop circuits, 20a disposal, 20a DW, 20a refrig, 20a microwave, and if it's a big kitchen we will throw in a couple of 20a spares. If it's a log home or just a real bugger to add to later we will run a 3/4 conduit spare over there also for a future range etc.

Once the Mrs. goes shopping we will usually be very glad we provided for plenty. They'll come back with warming drawers, wine refers, convection ovens, cooktops, veggie chillers, and just about anything you can think of.

 

[steelersman]

On new custom homes around here it is common for us to be totally in the dark when it comes to roughing in for the kitchen appliances. Usually the homeowner hasn't gone shopping for appliances until it's time to install them. For that reason we usually run 3 sm appl countertop circuits, 20a disposal, 20a DW, 20a refrig, 20a microwave, and if it's a big kitchen we will throw in a couple of 20a spares. If it's a log home or just a real bugger to add to later we will run a 3/4 conduit spare over there also for a future range etc.

Once the Mrs. goes shopping we will usually be very glad we provided for plenty. They'll come back with warming drawers, wine refers, convection ovens, cooktops, veggie chillers, and just about anything you can think of.

that's still overkill IMO to provide that many extra circuits. Way way way overkill. In fact it's almost a crime to waste that much wire.

 

[iwire]

Lets keep in mind that the opening poster asked what the requirements are, not what each one of us thinks is the right way.

Trying to get clariifcation on requried kitchen home runs.

 

[chris500]

I have not personally seen any manufacturers instructions for any of the above mentioned appliances, with the exception of the range hood, that do NOT call for a dedicated circuit for their appliance.

110.3b clearly states that equipment shall be installed in accordance with any instructions included in the listing.

The instructions that are included in the listing call for a dedicated circuit to be installed for the appliance.

Thus code clearly states that a dedicated circuit shall be installed for the appliance.

Just because it has been done for years and has never been failed for an inspection does not mean that it was code compliant.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I really doubt that the manufacturer's instructions that call for a dedicated circuits are part of the "listing".

 

[charlie b]

The instructions that are included in the listing call for a dedicated circuit to be installed for the appliance.

This is another of those points in which the NEC wording can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. I do not agree with your statement. I do agree that the instructions that come with the packaging may call for a dedicated circuit. But that is not the same as "instructions included in the listing."

Indeed, I am not certain what could be meant by "instructions included in the listing." Getting a product "listed" is a process that is handled by the manufacturer and the testing laboratory. The manufacturer will tell the lab what characteristics are to be tested and verified. That is, the manufacturer gives "instructions" to the lab. Then the lab sends back a report that the product passed the tests. Thereafter, the world is able to infer that if we buy and install this product, we can be assured that it will perform as expected, so long as we use it in a way that is not outside the conditions under which it was tested.

That is what I see, when the NEC tells me to install and use the product according to the "instructions included in the listing." I must not use the product in a manner that is outside the test conditions. It is the manufacturer's duty to inform me what those conditions were.

What the manufacturer gives me, however, is a set of "instructions included in the box." That is not the same thing. So I am left wondering how much of the "instructions included in the box" I must obey, in order to be certain I am obeying all "instructions included in the listing."

 

[gndrod]

HR minimums

HR minimums

Hi Tony,

As Charlie B says, two SA counter circuits are all the NEC specifies in the kitchen. Depending on the project specs this can sometimes be misleading if the appliance legend does not include detailed descriptions. In high end homes, I have installed larger than normal equipment for the client based on what they need. Some people opt to load up with commercial equipment for their needs that can require paying attention to what is going to be installed.

A good example is the customer may insist on a 2 hp disposer for their life style (or culinary statement), so just putting in a 15 amp 120Vac BC may not be compliant to NEC sizing requirements for the load. Plan specifications for appliances are important for sure and just doing minimum on a modern home requires additional circuit allowances to match the scale of affluence intended. So your question about minimum may not be an accurate guide for a project bottom line. rbj

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

For example, if you wanted to use a 15 amp circuit to supply the dishwasher (hard wired) and a disposal (plug & cord connected), and if the DW by itself drew 8 amps, then you would run afoul of 210.23(A)(2).

Charlie.....isn't 210.23(A) (2) pertainant only if you are introducing other loads as part of the DW/Disp circuit?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I really doubt that the manufacturer's instructions that call for a dedicated circuits are part of the "listing".

This is a great point. It would have been easy to say "any instructions provided by the manufacturer"... They specifically say "listing".

It seems purposeful. Some instructions may only "warranty spoilers" and have no safety inssue at all.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie.....isn't 210.23(A) (2) pertainant only if you are introducing other loads as part of the DW/Disp circuit?

I tried to word that post in such a way as to show that the disposal was the "plug and cord thing" that was being added to the DW circuit. In that circumstance, the DW would not be allowed to be over 50% of the load. Thus, an 8 amp DW on a 15 amp circuit would be outside the rules. But perhaps I picked a poor example, since it can be argued that the disposal is fastened in place. Oh well.

 

[DanZ]

This is another of those points in which the NEC wording can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. I do not agree with your statement. I do agree that the instructions that come with the packaging may call for a dedicated circuit. But that is not the same as "instructions included in the listing."

Indeed, I am not certain what could be meant by "instructions included in the listing." Getting a product "listed" is a process that is handled by the manufacturer and the testing laboratory. The manufacturer will tell the lab what characteristics are to be tested and verified. That is, the manufacturer gives "instructions" to the lab. Then the lab sends back a report that the product passed the tests. Thereafter, the world is able to infer that if we buy and install this product, we can be assured that it will perform as expected, so long as we use it in a way that is not outside the conditions under which it was tested.

That is what I see, when the NEC tells me to install and use the product according to the "instructions included in the listing." I must not use the product in a manner that is outside the test conditions. It is the manufacturer's duty to inform me what those conditions were.

What the manufacturer gives me, however, is a set of "instructions included in the box." That is not the same thing. So I am left wondering how much of the "instructions included in the box" I must obey, in order to be certain I am obeying all "instructions included in the listing."

All of them! When items are tested by UL, they are typically tested in those conditions. For example, you buy an off the shelf, on the shelf (stand alone) microwave, and decide that you want it "built in", so you go and drill holes in the cabinet...and violate the listing!

 

[iwire]

All of them! When items are tested by UL, they are typically tested in those conditions. For example, you buy an off the shelf, on the shelf (stand alone) microwave, and decide that you want it "built in", so you go and drill holes in the cabinet...and violate the listing!

Nope it is not that simple, Charlie and Don are correct.

If I buy a dishwasher and in the instructions it says 'always use Brand X detergent' would you say it is a UL 'violation' to use another soap? Do you really think that instruction is part of the listing?

Read 110.3(B) slowly and ask yourself why it is worded the way it is if in fact all instructions had to be followed.

 

[peter d]

I really doubt that the manufacturer's instructions that call for a dedicated circuits are part of the "listing".

I have often wondered the same thing with regard to this issue, and the other issue I have created a stink about with regard to the hot tub manufacturers calling for an EGC the same size as the phase conductors.