More island questions .An island that has doors all the way around,with the doors basically going from floor to marble top, where should the outlet be placed?and also can a garbage disposal switch be put inside a cabinet?The homeowner had the marble contractor cut two holes in the top to accommodate two walker 4 inch poke trues(He bought them on ebay without asking us first)I see in the 99 handbook that outlets can not be installed face up in a counter-top,but i cant find it in the 2005 code book.Has this changed?
kitchen island outlets
- Thread starter jersey
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Re: kitchen island outlets
in answer to one of your questions:
406.4 Receptacle Mounting
(E) Receptacles in Countertops and Similar Work Surfaces in Dwelling Units Receptacles shall not be installed in a face-up position in countertops or similar work surfaces.
in answer to one of your questions:
406.4 Receptacle Mounting
(E) Receptacles in Countertops and Similar Work Surfaces in Dwelling Units Receptacles shall not be installed in a face-up position in countertops or similar work surfaces.
Re: kitchen island outlets
as for the disposal they make a push button air switch that goes on the sink that works great. most people don't like to open a cabinet to get to a switch. as for the recpt I feel your pain the code requires one but no one is making the cabinet people leave a space for one.
as for the disposal they make a push button air switch that goes on the sink that works great. most people don't like to open a cabinet to get to a switch. as for the recpt I feel your pain the code requires one but no one is making the cabinet people leave a space for one.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: kitchen island outlets
I don't know what that "walker" device is. But if it is a receptacle outlet box, can it be turned "sideways" and mounted above the countertop, with the receptacle facing inwards? If not, tell the owner to sell it on eBay.
I know of no reason that a garbage disposal switch cannot go inside a cabinet.
I also know of no reason that a receptacle outlet cannot go inside a cabinet. You could satisfy the "letter of the law" by mounting an outlet box just inside one of the doors. It will not be convenient for the owner to use that receptacle, since he would have to open the door first. But the NEC is not interested in convenience. What the NEC is trying to avoid is running an extension cord across the kitchen floor, just to power an appliance on the island countertop.
My best suggestion would be to have the owner hire a carpenter to cut down the size of one of the doors, to fill in the space with a solid board, and to cut a hole in that board for you to mount an outlet box.
I don't know what that "walker" device is. But if it is a receptacle outlet box, can it be turned "sideways" and mounted above the countertop, with the receptacle facing inwards? If not, tell the owner to sell it on eBay.
I know of no reason that a garbage disposal switch cannot go inside a cabinet.
I also know of no reason that a receptacle outlet cannot go inside a cabinet. You could satisfy the "letter of the law" by mounting an outlet box just inside one of the doors. It will not be convenient for the owner to use that receptacle, since he would have to open the door first. But the NEC is not interested in convenience. What the NEC is trying to avoid is running an extension cord across the kitchen floor, just to power an appliance on the island countertop.
My best suggestion would be to have the owner hire a carpenter to cut down the size of one of the doors, to fill in the space with a solid board, and to cut a hole in that board for you to mount an outlet box.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: kitchen island outlets
Charlie B
I am not to sure that a receptacle installed inside of the cabinets would fulfill the requirements for a countertop receptacle. Relief is given where there is no back or wall for installing a receptacle.
As ugly as they look this in one way to fulfill the requirement.
Charlie B
I am not to sure that a receptacle installed inside of the cabinets would fulfill the requirements for a countertop receptacle. Relief is given where there is no back or wall for installing a receptacle.
Ever hear the word ?tombstone??
As ugly as they look this in one way to fulfill the requirement.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: kitchen island outlets
Jersey,
Had a situation like this not too long ago. The entire sides of the island had decorative wood and moldings. I brought the 20 amp GFI circuit up inside the cavity and into the back of the cabinet that housed the sink. There was no backsplash to install a receptacle on and the homeowner didn't want a receptacle installed in her expensive decorative wood finish. I had to submit an application for a "variation in the code" (quite different than a variance) and I had to cite the section of the code and reasons for not installing any receptacles in the island. This was acceptable by the AHJ.
Phil,
Gold Star Electric
Jersey,
Had a situation like this not too long ago. The entire sides of the island had decorative wood and moldings. I brought the 20 amp GFI circuit up inside the cavity and into the back of the cabinet that housed the sink. There was no backsplash to install a receptacle on and the homeowner didn't want a receptacle installed in her expensive decorative wood finish. I had to submit an application for a "variation in the code" (quite different than a variance) and I had to cite the section of the code and reasons for not installing any receptacles in the island. This was acceptable by the AHJ.
Phil,
Gold Star Electric
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: kitchen island outlets
Ok, here is something we can endlessly debate for a while, You can attach some castor wheels to the bottom of the Island cabinet assembly and therefore you now have a portable Island. I have been on projects where this was done and you could not tell by looking that the thing was on wheels. When this is done is it a violation of 210.52 (3) (C)(2) to eliminate the receptacle outlets entirely? Opinions please.
Ok, here is something we can endlessly debate for a while, You can attach some castor wheels to the bottom of the Island cabinet assembly and therefore you now have a portable Island. I have been on projects where this was done and you could not tell by looking that the thing was on wheels. When this is done is it a violation of 210.52 (3) (C)(2) to eliminate the receptacle outlets entirely? Opinions please.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: kitchen island outlets
To meet the criteria of an island it would need to be attached to the floor.
I disagree with this statement in so much as it is no longer an island.
To meet the criteria of an island it would need to be attached to the floor.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: kitchen island outlets
That is news to me. I have heard of the later term, but not the former. Can you shed some light on the differences?
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: kitchen island outlets
This island would require a receptacle. Here in MA we do not have the authority to grant an official variance or any other exemption from code compliance. Personally, I might grant an unofficial "variation" by simply passing the install.
If an inspector insists on having the required receptacle, there will probably be a very irate customer, but it is a requirement.
This island would require a receptacle. Here in MA we do not have the authority to grant an official variance or any other exemption from code compliance. Personally, I might grant an unofficial "variation" by simply passing the install.
If an inspector insists on having the required receptacle, there will probably be a very irate customer, but it is a requirement.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: kitchen island outlets
I have gone the route of letting the homeowner fight with the inspector over not having the required receptacle. So far it has worked out. I think.
I have gone the route of letting the homeowner fight with the inspector over not having the required receptacle. So far it has worked out. I think.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: kitchen island outlets
I've made people cut into some very nice looking cabinetry for receptacles.
I've made people cut into some very nice looking cabinetry for receptacles.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: kitchen island outlets
Charlie,
A "variance" is something that is applied for in a township when a situation such as a structure needs to be wider, taller, extends too close to anothers property line, etc., etc., etc. These usually take planning board meetings, plan reviews by city officials and usually thousands of $$.
A "variation in the code" is something that is handled by a municipal official on a very informal basis where he/she can make a decision as to whether the infraction in the code can be granted based on the basis of your reasons for not complying. I know this sounds like a lot of double talk but it is really a rather easy task to accomplish. However, I'm not sure that all towns will allow you to make these applications. Based on some of the responses here I can see that some inspectors would not even consider it.
Charlie,
A "variance" is something that is applied for in a township when a situation such as a structure needs to be wider, taller, extends too close to anothers property line, etc., etc., etc. These usually take planning board meetings, plan reviews by city officials and usually thousands of $$.
A "variation in the code" is something that is handled by a municipal official on a very informal basis where he/she can make a decision as to whether the infraction in the code can be granted based on the basis of your reasons for not complying. I know this sounds like a lot of double talk but it is really a rather easy task to accomplish. However, I'm not sure that all towns will allow you to make these applications. Based on some of the responses here I can see that some inspectors would not even consider it.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: kitchen island outlets
This is a code rule that creates as much a hazard and maybe more than it is preventing.
We've been over this before so I am not going to type like a maniac but this rule is bull.
Not blaming you Ryan but that stinks.
This is a code rule that creates as much a hazard and maybe more than it is preventing.
We've been over this before so I am not going to type like a maniac but this rule is bull.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: kitchen island outlets
My approach is similar to Ryan's. I tell the customer that I will not make them do anything. I tell them if they do not want the receptacle, so be it - they just will not get their C.O..
Well, they usually come up with some creative solution. I suggest to the EC that it is not his problem to locate a spot in an island that is not properly designed for today's codes, let the Architect or cabinet designer come up with a solution. If they can design such a beauty, they can figure a way...they always have.
My approach is similar to Ryan's. I tell the customer that I will not make them do anything. I tell them if they do not want the receptacle, so be it - they just will not get their C.O..
Well, they usually come up with some creative solution. I suggest to the EC that it is not his problem to locate a spot in an island that is not properly designed for today's codes, let the Architect or cabinet designer come up with a solution. If they can design such a beauty, they can figure a way...they always have.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: kitchen island outlets
These cabinet makers know better than to not leave room... this is nothing new.
As for the holes in the top!
Sounds to me like they will need a new marble top. Not your fault, that is for sure.
Don't forget,if the sink divides the two spaces you'll need 2 recps.
Dave
That sounds like the best route to me also.
These cabinet makers know better than to not leave room... this is nothing new.
As for the holes in the top!
Sounds to me like they will need a new marble top. Not your fault, that is for sure.
Don't forget,if the sink divides the two spaces you'll need 2 recps.
Dave
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: kitchen island outlets
There is usually enough space to mount a wiremold box facing down (code says nothing about facing down )
I agree with you .We are EC`S not magicians,when the question comes up as to where can we possibly put a receptacle.I will look as a courtesy.Sometimes there is no place to cut one in.
There is usually enough space to mount a wiremold box facing down (code says nothing about facing down )
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: kitchen island outlets
Pierre,
While you may think that telling the EC he is not at fault is comforting, it does nothing to get the job done. In reality and irrespective of how good a job the EC has done with the rest of the project, he, the GC, the plumber and everyone else involved will not get their final payment unless that customer gets her CO. If you, as the AHJ, and the EC and the homeowner cannot come up with a viable solution as to what would be acceptable then there has to be some type of remedy whereby the homeowner can get a CO. The scenario I cited as a "variation in the code" is, in my opinion, an acceptable remedy. It forces the EC to research the code in violation, cite the code reference in writing and state reason(s) for inability to comply. You (the AHJ) review it, accept it and leave it on file in the permit jacket for any future reference. Everybody's happy and you're off the hook. What's wrong with that ?
[ November 17, 2005, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
Pierre,
While you may think that telling the EC he is not at fault is comforting, it does nothing to get the job done. In reality and irrespective of how good a job the EC has done with the rest of the project, he, the GC, the plumber and everyone else involved will not get their final payment unless that customer gets her CO. If you, as the AHJ, and the EC and the homeowner cannot come up with a viable solution as to what would be acceptable then there has to be some type of remedy whereby the homeowner can get a CO. The scenario I cited as a "variation in the code" is, in my opinion, an acceptable remedy. It forces the EC to research the code in violation, cite the code reference in writing and state reason(s) for inability to comply. You (the AHJ) review it, accept it and leave it on file in the permit jacket for any future reference. Everybody's happy and you're off the hook. What's wrong with that ?
[ November 17, 2005, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: kitchen island outlets
I do not try to comfort the EC, I try to help relieve some of the responsibility to the proper individuals, such as the kitchen designer/cabinet builder - they need to shoulder the responsibility as well. I believe this situation has been going on long enough that they should know what has to be installed.
The NEC when adopted by a jurisdiction, becomes the code. Like other codes, it is to be followed, not just for the electrical installer, but by all who work. My meaning is the kitchen designers, Architects and anyone involved in the construction process. Putting one's head in the sand, leaves one's #$$ sticking up.
As an AHJ, I am the inspector, not the designer, as a matter of fact I have been told too many times do not get involved in the design aspect of the job as we are not the designers.
I learned very early on to not yell, or loose my temper, as the pen and paper are very convincing, always stating the section number of the correction necessary (I try not to use the word violation. When we started the company, we did not have violation sheets, we had correction sheets. The municipalities told us to change it to violation sheets).
I will, if all parties involved are reasonable, try to be a part of the resolution. I have yet to have one of these situations not resolved. I will say that every time I had a kitchen rough, that was the time I brought up the counter receptacle issue, so they would not say they had no idea at the final - that gives them plenty of time to resolve the issue.
If an inspector gives ECs a free ride on certain issues because he does not believe in that certain aspect of the code, he becomes an enabler. He makes it difficult for himself and all others involved and that is why the process sometimes can become so difficult.
Scenario - a kitchen designer gets by on one kitchen because the inspector in that area says okay. Now that same designer goes to work in another jurisdiction and he meets me.... I see problems... he blows his top and tells me that inspector so and so says it is okay... do you see my point?
[ November 17, 2005, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
I do not try to comfort the EC, I try to help relieve some of the responsibility to the proper individuals, such as the kitchen designer/cabinet builder - they need to shoulder the responsibility as well. I believe this situation has been going on long enough that they should know what has to be installed.
The NEC when adopted by a jurisdiction, becomes the code. Like other codes, it is to be followed, not just for the electrical installer, but by all who work. My meaning is the kitchen designers, Architects and anyone involved in the construction process. Putting one's head in the sand, leaves one's #$$ sticking up.
As an AHJ, I am the inspector, not the designer, as a matter of fact I have been told too many times do not get involved in the design aspect of the job as we are not the designers.
I learned very early on to not yell, or loose my temper, as the pen and paper are very convincing, always stating the section number of the correction necessary (I try not to use the word violation. When we started the company, we did not have violation sheets, we had correction sheets. The municipalities told us to change it to violation sheets).
I will, if all parties involved are reasonable, try to be a part of the resolution. I have yet to have one of these situations not resolved. I will say that every time I had a kitchen rough, that was the time I brought up the counter receptacle issue, so they would not say they had no idea at the final - that gives them plenty of time to resolve the issue.
If an inspector gives ECs a free ride on certain issues because he does not believe in that certain aspect of the code, he becomes an enabler. He makes it difficult for himself and all others involved and that is why the process sometimes can become so difficult.
Scenario - a kitchen designer gets by on one kitchen because the inspector in that area says okay. Now that same designer goes to work in another jurisdiction and he meets me.... I see problems... he blows his top and tells me that inspector so and so says it is okay... do you see my point?
[ November 17, 2005, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: kitchen island outlets
You guys are skipping right over one of the main points.
It is not always about a receptacle not fitting on the island.
It is about a person paying thousands of dollars to have what is more a furniture piece made and some yahoos telling then they MUST HAVE a receptacle put on it.
It is ridiculous.
If you look at a modern kitchen where the island is to be installed there are plenty of counter use receptacles. Most times a person that needs a receptacle for an appliance will use that appliance where the receptacle is. No problem.
I'd like to see the body count from islands without receptacles. I'll bet there is none.
I will continue to not install them if the customer wishes.
The argument that a cord hanging over the side of an island is far more valid than the island not having a receptacle. This does not just apply to kids pulling that cord but to an adult snagging the cord and bringing down whatever it is attached to.
Just one more good reason to avoid permits.
[ November 17, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
You guys are skipping right over one of the main points.
It is not always about a receptacle not fitting on the island.
It is about a person paying thousands of dollars to have what is more a furniture piece made and some yahoos telling then they MUST HAVE a receptacle put on it.
It is ridiculous.
If you look at a modern kitchen where the island is to be installed there are plenty of counter use receptacles. Most times a person that needs a receptacle for an appliance will use that appliance where the receptacle is. No problem.
I'd like to see the body count from islands without receptacles. I'll bet there is none.
I will continue to not install them if the customer wishes.
The argument that a cord hanging over the side of an island is far more valid than the island not having a receptacle. This does not just apply to kids pulling that cord but to an adult snagging the cord and bringing down whatever it is attached to.
Just one more good reason to avoid permits.
[ November 17, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
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