kitchen micro
- Thread starter ddconnell
- Start date
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george t. everett
Senior Member
- Location
- New York
Re: kitchen micro
Yes, all 120 volt counter top outlets have to be a minimum 20 amp & GFCI protected.
Yes, all 120 volt counter top outlets have to be a minimum 20 amp & GFCI protected.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: kitchen micro
Hello ddconnell
This might 'stir up' some comments, so lets see.
210.52(C)(5) Receptacle Outlet Location.
2nd sentence - Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.
2002 NEC reference. (the bold is my edit)
If this microwave is sitting on the countertop, and is of a rating that takes 80% or less of a 15 amp circuit - 210.23(A)(1), and is plugged into a single receptacle, then I would say it could be a 15 amp circuit and non-GFCI receptacle. Remember it is not considered one of the required countertop small appliance branch circuits [210.11(C)(10, 210.52(B)(3)]
Because the homeowner could easily remove the microwave, I think the AHJ could require the receptacle to be GFCI protected, it is his call.
Pierre
Hello ddconnell
This might 'stir up' some comments, so lets see.
210.52(C)(5) Receptacle Outlet Location.
2nd sentence - Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.
2002 NEC reference. (the bold is my edit)
If this microwave is sitting on the countertop, and is of a rating that takes 80% or less of a 15 amp circuit - 210.23(A)(1), and is plugged into a single receptacle, then I would say it could be a 15 amp circuit and non-GFCI receptacle. Remember it is not considered one of the required countertop small appliance branch circuits [210.11(C)(10, 210.52(B)(3)]
Because the homeowner could easily remove the microwave, I think the AHJ could require the receptacle to be GFCI protected, it is his call.
Pierre
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: kitchen micro
Ditto pierre!
And let's not forget;
Ditto pierre!
And let's not forget;
Dave
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: kitchen micro
No way is a 15 amp circuit allowed. A microwave sitting on a counter is a portable small appliance. If the micro is built in than thats a different story. But that does not apply here. this is no different than a toaster, blender, or any other counter appliance. This is a small appliance receptacle and must be 20 amp and gfci protected.
[ June 29, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
No way is a 15 amp circuit allowed. A microwave sitting on a counter is a portable small appliance. If the micro is built in than thats a different story. But that does not apply here. this is no different than a toaster, blender, or any other counter appliance. This is a small appliance receptacle and must be 20 amp and gfci protected.
[ June 29, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: kitchen micro
What about a receptacle in an appilance garage? 210.52 (C)(5) states receptacle outlets in the appilance garage do no count as the required counter surface receptacles. Is this receptacle required to be GFCI protected?
What about a receptacle in an appilance garage? 210.52 (C)(5) states receptacle outlets in the appilance garage do no count as the required counter surface receptacles. Is this receptacle required to be GFCI protected?
russellroberts
Senior Member
- Location
- Georgia
Re: kitchen micro
I think we beat up on Allen Wayne a few months ago about gfci's in an appliance garage.
I believe the concensus was yes it should be.
Russell
I think we beat up on Allen Wayne a few months ago about gfci's in an appliance garage.
I believe the concensus was yes it should be.
Russell
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: kitchen micro
This is an example of a code change with a unintended intent. for the 2005 cycle there is a proposal to require GFCI.
This is an example of a code change with a unintended intent. for the 2005 cycle there is a proposal to require GFCI.
frenchelectrican
Senior Member
- Location
- Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
Re: kitchen micro
as far for microwave crkt. i useally run #12 wires and set breaker for 20 amps and of course mantory use of gfci and yeah i know nec say kitchen applaince crkt. minuim required is 2 crks. but most of my time i useally ran more than that typcally 3 or 4 depend on design or layout of kitchen area and most of time the microwave useally sit on countertop area but few area have specal space for wall mout or undercabent type then i run separtate crkt but still use the gfci
merci marc
as far for microwave crkt. i useally run #12 wires and set breaker for 20 amps and of course mantory use of gfci and yeah i know nec say kitchen applaince crkt. minuim required is 2 crks. but most of my time i useally ran more than that typcally 3 or 4 depend on design or layout of kitchen area and most of time the microwave useally sit on countertop area but few area have specal space for wall mout or undercabent type then i run separtate crkt but still use the gfci
merci marc
inspector 102
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Indiana
Re: kitchen micro
Just a comical point of view. If an appliance is placed in an "appliance garage", then does not Article 210.8 (A)(2) state that GFCI protection is required. Might not meet the definition of a garage under Article 100, but will certainly confuse an electrican for a few minutes.
Just a comical point of view. If an appliance is placed in an "appliance garage", then does not Article 210.8 (A)(2) state that GFCI protection is required. Might not meet the definition of a garage under Article 100, but will certainly confuse an electrican for a few minutes.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: kitchen micro
I agree with Pierre, in that this need not be a part of the two required small appliance circuits. If there are two 20 amp small appliance circuits that are separate from this circuit, then it need not be a 20 amp circuit.
I believe I see the source of confusion and of differences in opinion here. The phrasing here is (by accident of fate) a great example of what I would call a conflict between ?conversational English? and ?technical communications.? The client wants a receptacle for the microwave, and intends to use it for no other purpose. In a conversation between friends, this could be called a ?dedicated receptacle.? However, the NEC uses that phrase for a specific type of installation, and has specific rules that apply. In a technical discussion between professionals in the electrical industry, it would be incorrect to call this installation a ?dedicated receptacle.? Once you place this receptacle above the countertop, and unless you build an appliance garage around it, you must treat it the same as any other counter-top receptacle (i.e., it needs GFCI protection).
I agree with Pierre, in that this need not be a part of the two required small appliance circuits. If there are two 20 amp small appliance circuits that are separate from this circuit, then it need not be a 20 amp circuit.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: kitchen micro
Charlie
I disagree with your second paragraph; if this is not a small appliance circuit then the microwave rec. could be fed off the kitchen lighting, living room or basement. As you stated this could not be interpreted as a dedicated circuit to the microwave. If this rec. cannot be dedicated to the microwave and it serves the kitchen counter it must be a small appliance circuit
Charlie
I disagree with your second paragraph; if this is not a small appliance circuit then the microwave rec. could be fed off the kitchen lighting, living room or basement. As you stated this could not be interpreted as a dedicated circuit to the microwave. If this rec. cannot be dedicated to the microwave and it serves the kitchen counter it must be a small appliance circuit
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: kitchen micro
David: I believe that you did not disagree. Or perhaps I should say, your description did not contradict my description. We have here another example of the English language getting in the way of communication. The difference here is between saying ?a small appliance circuit? and ?the required two small appliance circuits.?
Obviously, a microwave is a ?small appliance.? I agree that a circuit that feeds a microwave can be properly called ?a small appliance circuit.? We all know that the NEC requires a residence to have two 20 amp ?small appliance circuits? serving the kitchen space.
What I believe Pierre said, and what I agreed with, is that the microwave does not need to be powered by one of the two required ?small appliance circuits.? It can be powered by a third circuit, independent from the required two. You can have a circuit that supplies only the fridge, another circuit that supplies only the dishwasher, another circuit that supplies only the garbage disposal, and another circuit that supplies only the microwave, but you will still need two separate 20 amp circuits for small appliances. Therefore, if a 15 amp circuit is sufficient for the load of a microwave, then the fact that a microwave is a ?small appliance? would not prevent us from installing a 15 amp circuit. But if the receptacle is above the countertop, it will still have to be GFCI protected per 210.8(A)(6).
David: I believe that you did not disagree. Or perhaps I should say, your description did not contradict my description. We have here another example of the English language getting in the way of communication. The difference here is between saying ?a small appliance circuit? and ?the required two small appliance circuits.?
Obviously, a microwave is a ?small appliance.? I agree that a circuit that feeds a microwave can be properly called ?a small appliance circuit.? We all know that the NEC requires a residence to have two 20 amp ?small appliance circuits? serving the kitchen space.
What I believe Pierre said, and what I agreed with, is that the microwave does not need to be powered by one of the two required ?small appliance circuits.? It can be powered by a third circuit, independent from the required two. You can have a circuit that supplies only the fridge, another circuit that supplies only the dishwasher, another circuit that supplies only the garbage disposal, and another circuit that supplies only the microwave, but you will still need two separate 20 amp circuits for small appliances. Therefore, if a 15 amp circuit is sufficient for the load of a microwave, then the fact that a microwave is a ?small appliance? would not prevent us from installing a 15 amp circuit. But if the receptacle is above the countertop, it will still have to be GFCI protected per 210.8(A)(6).
Re: kitchen micro
The requirment for twenty amp circuits above the counter top is due to the small appliances being a variable, and unknown load.
All dedicated circuits are for fixed loads, such as garbage disposals, trash compactors, dishwashers, refrigerators, and built in micro-wave ovens.
A washing machine could be on a 15 amp circuit if it were dedicated to only the washer. My washer draws 10 amps. The code states a 20 amp circuit. This is due to the others receptacles,in the room, will have a variable load.
The requirment for twenty amp circuits above the counter top is due to the small appliances being a variable, and unknown load.
All dedicated circuits are for fixed loads, such as garbage disposals, trash compactors, dishwashers, refrigerators, and built in micro-wave ovens.
A washing machine could be on a 15 amp circuit if it were dedicated to only the washer. My washer draws 10 amps. The code states a 20 amp circuit. This is due to the others receptacles,in the room, will have a variable load.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: kitchen micro
As far as the appliance garage issue goes, unless you are climbing in there to make your toast, gfci protection is certainly required.You will be pulling the appliance out to use it ON THE COUNTER. The receptacle in there is for counter use and therfore 210.8 A 6 applies
As far as the appliance garage issue goes, unless you are climbing in there to make your toast, gfci protection is certainly required.You will be pulling the appliance out to use it ON THE COUNTER. The receptacle in there is for counter use and therfore 210.8 A 6 applies
Re: kitchen micro
I believe 210.52(B)(1) requires the microwave receptacle to be served by a 20-ampere circuit if it serves a counter space as discussed in 210.52(C). Especially so if the spacing requirements of 210.52(C) can not be met without including the microwave receptacle.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: kitchen micro
It is interesting how certain posts draw such attention, and varied answers. I like the discussion here. If one was to go to the ROP, I bet we could get a better idea of what the CMP really meant. I do not have that particular copy, or I would look it up.
It is interesting how certain posts draw such attention, and varied answers. I like the discussion here. If one was to go to the ROP, I bet we could get a better idea of what the CMP really meant. I do not have that particular copy, or I would look it up.
george t. everett
Senior Member
- Location
- New York
Re: kitchen micro
Electricmanscott, your post is the correct ansewer. A microwave sitting on the counter is a small appliance.
Electricmanscott, your post is the correct ansewer. A microwave sitting on the counter is a small appliance.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: kitchen micro
Let me see if I can be clear. First by distinguishing between an appliance circuit with no need to distinguish how small or large the appliance , verses the two or more small appliance circuits required by the NEC.
If this is a portable microwave easily moved from one rec. to another simply by unplugging the microwave and moving it to a new location in the kitchen then the circuit supplying the microwave would be one of the two or more small 20 amp small appliance circuits required by the NEC.
If however the microwave is secured in such a way that the rec. supplies only the microwave then this circuit would be an appliance circuit similar to the dishwasher, refrig., and garabage disposal that you pointed out in your post.
Let me see if I can be clear. First by distinguishing between an appliance circuit with no need to distinguish how small or large the appliance , verses the two or more small appliance circuits required by the NEC.
If this is a portable microwave easily moved from one rec. to another simply by unplugging the microwave and moving it to a new location in the kitchen then the circuit supplying the microwave would be one of the two or more small 20 amp small appliance circuits required by the NEC.
If however the microwave is secured in such a way that the rec. supplies only the microwave then this circuit would be an appliance circuit similar to the dishwasher, refrig., and garabage disposal that you pointed out in your post.
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