Kitchen Remodel

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daveselectric

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The local AHJ has take the position that if the kitchen cabinetry is being changed out without any structural work or opening of walls, then the electrical in that kitchen need not be updated. This is based on Article 80.9.

I told the AHJ that I would pose this to the forum for discussion.

I am of the opinion that if a kitchen is going to be updated for looks, that the kitchen should be updated to accommodate the newer appliances on the market.

What is your opinion?

[ May 09, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

In my opinion, it should be evaluated, and the homeowner should be given a description of the current wiring and any recommendations for upgrades. But that is a design choice. I believe that the NEC would not require it.

I installed a set of kitchen cabinets once myself. It is a task that I would not choose to do again. But it did not require me to move any outlets or to upgrade the wiring for any new appliances, so I did not need the services of an electrician.

I agree with your AHJ.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

I do kitchen cabinet installations regularly and I always survey the kitchen for outlet locations, GFCIs, and for (2) 20a circuits. I would then ask the client if they had enough outlets in convenient places such that extent ion cords, multiple outlet adaptors and the inconvenience of having to unplug one appliance to plug in another appliance, if they had trouble with tripping breakers, etc. I also explain the current code requirements and why they may benefit from it.
More often than not they are interested in updating for convenience as well as safety and they is no better time to update the wiring.
Other points would be a an isolated cabinet, peninsulas, and islands with countertop which have no convenience outlets and the interest in both under cabinet and over cabinet lighting if applicable.
It's also a good time to replace thse worn out outlets an install grounding outlets.
Just the other day I discovered that the original electrician had not inserted that red protective bushing into the end of a BX cable where it entered a 4x4 and the line conductor insulation was damaged just the just a wiggle caused it to short against the sharp metal of the armor.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Templdl, I think your and Charlie b's methods of advising the custmer is the best way to handle the situation and with that said, I'll cast my vote with the AHJ as well.

Roger

[ May 09, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

This is based on Article 80.9.
Art 80 only applies if the jurisdiction has adopted it. In washingon state we have our our version on Art 80
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Remember that code is a minimum standard. Folowing code does not necessairly mean a good installation with good craftmanship. I do not agree with the final outcome but the AHJ has won my vote too. Not a code issue.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Ok, now the homeowner has a nice counter top with 18" back-splash, installed with his new cabinetry, but not to worry because the cabinet installer also does electrical work, some of the horror jobs we have seen, include gfci yoke screwed to back-splash and no box, open cable splices in wall, all counter top outlets on one circuit, I am sure, this beautiful work will continue.

I agree with AHJ, but it is better to upgrade before all the beautiful work is done, it seems we get the call after the cabinet work was done and handy dandy has already wired for fire.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

This question highlights the need to know more than just your trade!

In this instance, I would look at the Uniform Building Code. Section 3403.2 states, in part. that alterations may be made without requiring the building to comply with all the requirements of the code.

To put this in context, it matters whether the repairs/alterations involve the structural parts, and the expense (scale) of the project. One general principle is that you need only meet code as it was at the time of the orginal construction.

For a kitchen, you can replace a non-grounded two-prong receptacle with a similar device. Add a receptacle, and it has to be GFCI protected. Gut the kitchen, and you get to redo the wiring.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Originally posted by renosteinke:
This question highlights the need to know more than just your trade!
Click to expand...
I agree!

From my understanding of the new Florida Building Code, if you build an addition to your existing dwelling and provide any opening to the addition from the home, the entire house must be brought to current code. These means window, door, same attic space, etc... Otherwise, you can attach the new addition to the house, but it can only be accessed from an outside location! :)
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

It has been my experience that when folks are remodeling their kitchens there is usually some new electric wanted (adding over the range microwave, for example). Generally, I will suggest that if they are going to spend $XX,XXX on cabinets, countertop, flooring, appliances, etc, etc. that its also a good time to bring the kitchen up to todays code, put lighting where they want it, etc, etc. Homeowner has never disagreed (hope I don't jinx myself). I've never told anyone that they HAD to bring up to code. They usually just want their brand new kitchen to really be brand new!!!
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Originally posted by bphgravity:
From my understanding of the new Florida Building Code, if you build an addition to your existing dwelling and provide any opening to the addition from the home, the entire house must be brought to current code. These means window, door, same attic space, etc... Otherwise, you can attach the new addition to the house, but it can only be accessed from an outside location! :) [/QB]
Click to expand...
That is the most rediculous thing I have ever read.
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

Section AJ501.3 Extensive Alterations.
This section of the ICC says that if the alteration exceeds 50% of the square footage of the building, than the building has to be brought up to the current code. That is being enforced in our area.

Pierre
 
Re: Kitchen Remodel

IRC R102.5 Appendices. Provisions in the appendices shall not apply unless specifically referenced in the adopting ordinance.
Click to expand...
Unless a jurisdiction has specifically adopted Appendix J, AJ501.3 has no force.
 
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