just wondering how everyone else goes about pricing a kitchen remodel.it has an open ceiling in basement for wire distibution. walls in kitchen are or will be open.no island or breakfast bar .approximatly 12 x 14. room in the panel for new circuits. basic kitchen micro.,dishwasher,fridge ect...
kitchen remodel
- Thread starter ram1234
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I price remodels about 1.25 to 2x higher than new construction.
This is called the PITA factor.
Contributing PITAs:
- condition of basement ~ sure the ceiling is accessible, what about the floor to get to the that loacation? Paths between mountains of boxes and "stuff" or completely open?
- access to/in kitchen ~ can I just walk in a back/side door to get to the kitchen or do I have to de-shoe to get there? Once in the kitchen, do I have to navigate my way around the appliances, other trades "stuff", etc?
- the inhabitants/occupants ~ kids, pets and chatty people that will only slow me down.
- prints....or lack thereof ~ can I just do my job or is every move a discussion?
- etc.
This is called the PITA factor.
Contributing PITAs:
- condition of basement ~ sure the ceiling is accessible, what about the floor to get to the that loacation? Paths between mountains of boxes and "stuff" or completely open?
- access to/in kitchen ~ can I just walk in a back/side door to get to the kitchen or do I have to de-shoe to get there? Once in the kitchen, do I have to navigate my way around the appliances, other trades "stuff", etc?
- the inhabitants/occupants ~ kids, pets and chatty people that will only slow me down.
- prints....or lack thereof ~ can I just do my job or is every move a discussion?
- etc.
electricguy
Senior Member
- Location
- British Columbia Canada
What I for a degree of difficulty is the wall that is above the center supporting beam in basement with trying to get around the heating duct work. this can be a pita at times.
celtic said:
"walls in kitchen are or will be open."
That one is a good one, when he get there "Oh we decided to leave some of the wall up, but you can just work around it" !!
Whatever you do make sure you have a signed contract with a defined scope of work, and don't forget the permit.
walls in kitchen are or will be open.
A little long winded but here goes.
Kitchens have become a specialized field within the field. Familiarize yourself with the things that people today expect to have in there. Know the products, know the trends, know what these things are going to cost and charge accordingly.
Meet with the potential customer and do a survey. Find out what the appliances are going to be, find out what is on their "wish list" Once you know what they want, see if you can get a feel for what their budget is. Once you know what they want and what they want to spend you can tailor your proposal to suit. If you know that their budget is $XXX then you can see how much of the wish list you can fit within their budget. This way you don't waste your time trying to sell them something that they aren't going to go for. On the other hand, if you can get them all or at least some of that "wish list" that may be enough to get you the job. Keep in mind that I don't change my prices to take advantage of people, my prices are set, they are the same for all jobs. They ask for something or I may suggest it, but they ultimately have the choice to accept or decline. No high pressure tactics it is what it is, no problem I will still make money on the job.
I do a lot of kitchens and find them very easy to quote. I've got a spreadsheet made up and just go down the list. X number of new circuits. sa1, sa2, dw, disp, micro, fridge etc. @ $XX ea. Appliance connections, hood, disposal dw etc. Then count the number of devices X number of recpts @ $X ea, 2 GFCI's @ $X ea. Switches, sp, 3w dimmer and charge accordingly. Then comes the lighting. Can lights 6" = $X, 5" = $X+ and 4"= X++, funny how the smaller the can gets the bigger the bill gets. Watch your material costs, a 65w BR30 costs $1.25 whereas a 90w par30 costs $9.00 X 10 or 12 it adds up, charge accordingly. Once I started using the spreadsheet I saw how many things were slipping through the cracks before, much less now.
Take the time to explain things 15 minutes spent early on in the process can save some grief down the road. If you've priced the job right the money's there for that time.
Most importantly, when you give them a proposal, tell them exactly what you're going to give them, then give them exactly what you told them. Handle changes as they go along. "No problem, I can add two more cans for $XX, will that be o-k? Would you like dimmers? I think they'd really make the difference." There you go, a $25 upcharge per switch, add three or four dimmers and you've just put another $60.00 / $80.00 in your pocket with no additional labor. Have you seen these new air switches? $55, plug it in, you just made $20 and they have something to show off to their friends. Those are just two examples of upselling that cost you no labor and put an extra $100 or so in your pocket. They're happy, you're happy, Cha-ching.
In your proposal, explain the process.
Here's a copy of the last page of my one of my proposals, check it out, it works for me.
Proposal no. 071112-01
This proposal includes only electrical work as described above, any additional work beyond the scope of this proposal requested by the owner will be performed only after an appropriate add on change order is approved by this contractor and owner.
All work will be installed to comply with the National Electrical Codes. All labor will be warranted for a period of one year. Material will be warranted by the respective manufacturer.
Any alterations, modifications and / or additions to wiring and / or devices installed by someone other than this contractor or his agent will void any and all warranties. Any service required after unauthorized alterations, modifications or additions will be subject to standard service rates in addition to any costs incurred to inspect the integrity of any or all devices and installation of such.
When installing new wring through existing walls it is sometimes necessary to cut access holes to facilitate the installation of this wiring. It is understood that although due care will be exercised to minimize these access holes and protect adjacent surfaces, some patching may be required. This patching is not included in this proposal.
Every effort will be made to locate fixtures exactly as shown by the drawings but it must be understood that structural and mechanical components concealed within the walls and ceiling may make some adjustment as to the location of such fixtures necessary.
This proposal has been prepared contingent upon the project being completed in two distinct phases. The first phase will be completed after demolition of existing cabinets, walls, fixtures, flooring etc. by XYZ Kitchen and Bath carpenters. This first phase (the rough wiring of the electrical portion of this project) will include the examination of exposed existing wiring, electrical fixtures and electrical devices. The installation of all concealed wiring, junction and device boxes and preparation for the installation of finished fixtures and devices.
The second phase (the finish wiring and trim installation of the electrical portion of this project) will include the installation of all fixtures, devices and finish wiring, the testing and adjustments of such to the satisfaction of the customer.
This second phase of this project will not be scheduled until such time as to permit one final trip to install all components to complete this project. Other trades work may be required to be finished prior to this scheduling such as the installation of countertops, tile, mirrors, cabinetry etc. Any deviation from this standard procedure will be subject to standard service rates of $75.00 per man-hour with a two-hour minimum charge.
Items not installed at the time of final finish trim portion of this project due to delays of other trades such as the installation of counter tops, wall coverings, etc. will not delay payment of finish portion of electrical portion of project. Any items not installed at this time will be deducted from final payment and be withheld by customer until such time remaining items are installed. The value of installation of such items will be as stated in accompanying worksheet.
We propose to furnish material and labor complete in accordance with above specifications for the sum of:
Three Thousand Seven Hundred Sixty Two dollars__________________________($3762.00)
Payment to be made as follows:
50% ($1881.00) upon start kitchen rough wiring, with the remaining 50% ($1881.00) upon completion of electrical portion of this project.
Authorized Signature______________________________________
This proposal can be withdrawn if not accepted within ______days
Acceptance of Proposal
The above prices, specifications and conditions are satisfactory and are hereby accepted. You are authorized to do the work as
specified. Payment will be made as outlined above.
Good luck,
FRANK
Kitchens have become a specialized field within the field. Familiarize yourself with the things that people today expect to have in there. Know the products, know the trends, know what these things are going to cost and charge accordingly.
Meet with the potential customer and do a survey. Find out what the appliances are going to be, find out what is on their "wish list" Once you know what they want, see if you can get a feel for what their budget is. Once you know what they want and what they want to spend you can tailor your proposal to suit. If you know that their budget is $XXX then you can see how much of the wish list you can fit within their budget. This way you don't waste your time trying to sell them something that they aren't going to go for. On the other hand, if you can get them all or at least some of that "wish list" that may be enough to get you the job. Keep in mind that I don't change my prices to take advantage of people, my prices are set, they are the same for all jobs. They ask for something or I may suggest it, but they ultimately have the choice to accept or decline. No high pressure tactics it is what it is, no problem I will still make money on the job.
I do a lot of kitchens and find them very easy to quote. I've got a spreadsheet made up and just go down the list. X number of new circuits. sa1, sa2, dw, disp, micro, fridge etc. @ $XX ea. Appliance connections, hood, disposal dw etc. Then count the number of devices X number of recpts @ $X ea, 2 GFCI's @ $X ea. Switches, sp, 3w dimmer and charge accordingly. Then comes the lighting. Can lights 6" = $X, 5" = $X+ and 4"= X++, funny how the smaller the can gets the bigger the bill gets. Watch your material costs, a 65w BR30 costs $1.25 whereas a 90w par30 costs $9.00 X 10 or 12 it adds up, charge accordingly. Once I started using the spreadsheet I saw how many things were slipping through the cracks before, much less now.
Take the time to explain things 15 minutes spent early on in the process can save some grief down the road. If you've priced the job right the money's there for that time.
Most importantly, when you give them a proposal, tell them exactly what you're going to give them, then give them exactly what you told them. Handle changes as they go along. "No problem, I can add two more cans for $XX, will that be o-k? Would you like dimmers? I think they'd really make the difference." There you go, a $25 upcharge per switch, add three or four dimmers and you've just put another $60.00 / $80.00 in your pocket with no additional labor. Have you seen these new air switches? $55, plug it in, you just made $20 and they have something to show off to their friends. Those are just two examples of upselling that cost you no labor and put an extra $100 or so in your pocket. They're happy, you're happy, Cha-ching.
In your proposal, explain the process.
Here's a copy of the last page of my one of my proposals, check it out, it works for me.
Proposal no. 071112-01
This proposal includes only electrical work as described above, any additional work beyond the scope of this proposal requested by the owner will be performed only after an appropriate add on change order is approved by this contractor and owner.
All work will be installed to comply with the National Electrical Codes. All labor will be warranted for a period of one year. Material will be warranted by the respective manufacturer.
Any alterations, modifications and / or additions to wiring and / or devices installed by someone other than this contractor or his agent will void any and all warranties. Any service required after unauthorized alterations, modifications or additions will be subject to standard service rates in addition to any costs incurred to inspect the integrity of any or all devices and installation of such.
When installing new wring through existing walls it is sometimes necessary to cut access holes to facilitate the installation of this wiring. It is understood that although due care will be exercised to minimize these access holes and protect adjacent surfaces, some patching may be required. This patching is not included in this proposal.
Every effort will be made to locate fixtures exactly as shown by the drawings but it must be understood that structural and mechanical components concealed within the walls and ceiling may make some adjustment as to the location of such fixtures necessary.
This proposal has been prepared contingent upon the project being completed in two distinct phases. The first phase will be completed after demolition of existing cabinets, walls, fixtures, flooring etc. by XYZ Kitchen and Bath carpenters. This first phase (the rough wiring of the electrical portion of this project) will include the examination of exposed existing wiring, electrical fixtures and electrical devices. The installation of all concealed wiring, junction and device boxes and preparation for the installation of finished fixtures and devices.
The second phase (the finish wiring and trim installation of the electrical portion of this project) will include the installation of all fixtures, devices and finish wiring, the testing and adjustments of such to the satisfaction of the customer.
This second phase of this project will not be scheduled until such time as to permit one final trip to install all components to complete this project. Other trades work may be required to be finished prior to this scheduling such as the installation of countertops, tile, mirrors, cabinetry etc. Any deviation from this standard procedure will be subject to standard service rates of $75.00 per man-hour with a two-hour minimum charge.
Items not installed at the time of final finish trim portion of this project due to delays of other trades such as the installation of counter tops, wall coverings, etc. will not delay payment of finish portion of electrical portion of project. Any items not installed at this time will be deducted from final payment and be withheld by customer until such time remaining items are installed. The value of installation of such items will be as stated in accompanying worksheet.
We propose to furnish material and labor complete in accordance with above specifications for the sum of:
Three Thousand Seven Hundred Sixty Two dollars__________________________($3762.00)
Payment to be made as follows:
50% ($1881.00) upon start kitchen rough wiring, with the remaining 50% ($1881.00) upon completion of electrical portion of this project.
Authorized Signature______________________________________
This proposal can be withdrawn if not accepted within ______days
Acceptance of Proposal
The above prices, specifications and conditions are satisfactory and are hereby accepted. You are authorized to do the work as
specified. Payment will be made as outlined above.
Good luck,
FRANK
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
That was a beautiful proposal
That was a beautiful proposal
The only thing I would like to add is allways give a higher price in the event the gc does not remove sufficient wallboard costing you hours of lost labor time. I was going to say 3200 without looking at it. 3700 is better though.
That was a beautiful proposal
The only thing I would like to add is allways give a higher price in the event the gc does not remove sufficient wallboard costing you hours of lost labor time. I was going to say 3200 without looking at it. 3700 is better though.
I'm pretty lucky around here, working with kitchen and bath design firms, it is understood that they will handle all patching required after me and the plumber are finished. Typically if the walls are not completely removed I will cut a slot behind the cabinets, below the countertop height to run all of my wiring, this makes the patching easier for them and shows that you are trying to make it as easy as you can for them. Try to save the cut outs also shows them that you are trying to make it easy for them. Keep in mind also that I work with the same guys repeatedly. It is in my best interest and theirs to work together. My attitude is that the other trades are out here for the same reason as I am, just trying to make a living. Why would I make it any harder on somebody than I have to? And I expect the same consideration from them. It usually works out.
On a side note. There once was the carpenter that didn't quite grasp the concept and repeatedly called me out when he wasn't quite ready. He got it after he called me to connect the appliances and he didn't even have the cut-out ready for the wall oven. I connected it without taking it out of the carton. The pigtail was a bit short so I cribbed it up on a few 2X4's. I even put the top back on the box. Boy was my phone ringing the next morning! We work well together now.
and don't forget the included language contained in the contract,
as stated on my "disclaimer page";
If they would like me to give them a price for the patching, I'm willing but I think that the guys that do it for a living daily could give them a better price.
FRANK
edited to add a few thoughts
On a side note. There once was the carpenter that didn't quite grasp the concept and repeatedly called me out when he wasn't quite ready. He got it after he called me to connect the appliances and he didn't even have the cut-out ready for the wall oven. I connected it without taking it out of the carton. The pigtail was a bit short so I cribbed it up on a few 2X4's. I even put the top back on the box. Boy was my phone ringing the next morning! We work well together now.
and don't forget the included language contained in the contract,
as stated on my "disclaimer page";
If they would like me to give them a price for the patching, I'm willing but I think that the guys that do it for a living daily could give them a better price.
FRANK
edited to add a few thoughts
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YUP!satcom said:
I tried to talk a GC into ripping the kitchen ceiling down - he didn't want to due to plaster & metal ....after relocating the fixtures the 2nd time he says:
Gee that's going to be a lot of patching - we should have ripped it down.
YA THINK ?????!!!!!!
Real close, as I said in my first post to this forum the other day, I've been lurking here for quite a while, several years in fact. I'm in my 50's and I have always worked that way, I never did understand why a contractor would put a ceiling on how much money they could make by charging T&M. And the infamous "not to exceed" clause is just plain crazy!
I believe I picked this quote from this site; "why punish yourself for becoming efficient?"
I subscribe to the philosophy of what is now known as "upfront pricing" I've always worked that way. Would you walk into the Ford dealer order a new truck and have them tell you "O-K now that'll be a couple of weeks. It'll cost you between $xxx and $xxx we'll have to see how long it takes them to build it.
I very seldom, and mean very seldom negotiate a price down. I give a proposal that I believe is fair, if it is more than the customer is willing to pay I will look to see how we can reduce the bottom line by either redefining the scope of work or substituting lessor cost options.
FRANK
I believe I picked this quote from this site; "why punish yourself for becoming efficient?"
I subscribe to the philosophy of what is now known as "upfront pricing" I've always worked that way. Would you walk into the Ford dealer order a new truck and have them tell you "O-K now that'll be a couple of weeks. It'll cost you between $xxx and $xxx we'll have to see how long it takes them to build it.
I very seldom, and mean very seldom negotiate a price down. I give a proposal that I believe is fair, if it is more than the customer is willing to pay I will look to see how we can reduce the bottom line by either redefining the scope of work or substituting lessor cost options.
FRANK
electricguy
Senior Member
- Location
- British Columbia Canada
Frank can you chck your pm
THANKS
THANKS
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