Kitchens, Coduit and Voltage Drop

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iwirehouses

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3 different questions, this might be illegal to do in this forum but here it goes...

1. I understand in a kitchen, GFCI's are need over the counter top. This is great for the sink, but what if there are 2 more counter tops that don't connect and an island in the middle, all sinkless. Duplex receptacle them?

2. Say your running juice to a shed 300 feet away. 20 amps out there tells me to use 8 ga. due to voltage drop. Ok, when all is said and done, how would one wire the shed with 8ga? I am assuming wire the shed with 12ga and feed it with 8ga, correct? Ok, say its going to a cheap 15amp 120v cord connected pool pump. 1 15amp GFCI receptecle. Do I pigtail 14ga. onto the 8 ga. right behind the outlet then tap into the outlet?

3. Last but not least. My life's question. And I have searched the book for this with no answer. What can you use in conduit? Since the beginning, every electrician has told me when using conduit, indoor or outdoor, always pull THHN. You can't even use UF. Then, my teacher told me, you can use anything, even romex provided its not outside. He's the first person I ever heard say this. What can you use in conduit besides THHN? What about wiremold?

Thanks guys
 
Listen to your instructor and ask questions when in doubt. Have the instructor teach you how to use the NEC.
All this knowledge will not come overnight.

If you are not going to listen to your instructor then do him as well as yourself a favor and quit these classes.
 
All countertop receptacles in a residential kitchen must be GFCI protected regardless of the presence of a sink. The old 6 foot from kitchen sink rule is long gone. In a non-residential kitchen ALL receptacles must be GFCI protected regardless of location.

Voltage drop is based on amp load, not circuit capacity. Is the 20-amp circuit fully loaded? If not base the voltage drop on actual load. Most installations would reguire the larger wire to the distribution panel in the separate building then normal circuit conductors in the building.

Look at article 358 for EMT for example. 358.22 states that "Cables shall be permitted to be installed where such use is permitted by the respective cable articles". The difficulty lies in determining "conduit fill" for a cable assembly. This can be tricky.
 
jwelectric said:
Listen to your instructor and ask questions when in doubt. Have the instructor teach you how to use the NEC.
All this knowledge will not come overnight.

If you are not going to listen to your instructor then do him as well as yourself a favor and quit these classes.
Click to expand...

Mike - I wholeheartedly disagree.

Some instructors get uptight/hostile when questioned in class; they make it uncomfortable to dispute or refute possibly incorrect information.

I have attended more than one electrical class where the instructor was absoluted incorrect about information provided in class.

I teach the electrical code for a college; I constantly tell my students to check out the Mike Holt forum. It [the forum] is the best source for accurate and intelligent discussion about the code; it is also a great place to check up on [confirm the accuracy of] information provided in the classroom (or anyhwere else). I do not expect my students to take my word as gospel...I'd be disappointed in them if they did. Students checking up on me keeps me on my toes, and it provides for lively classroom discourse.
 
iwirehouses said:
3 different questions, this might be illegal to do in this forum but here it goes...

1. I understand in a kitchen, GFCI's are need over the counter top. This is great for the sink, but what if there are 2 more counter tops that don't connect and an island in the middle, all sinkless. Duplex receptacle them?

2. Say your running juice to a shed 300 feet away. 20 amps out there tells me to use 8 ga. due to voltage drop. Ok, when all is said and done, how would one wire the shed with 8ga? I am assuming wire the shed with 12ga and feed it with 8ga, correct? Ok, say its going to a cheap 15amp 120v cord connected pool pump. 1 15amp GFCI receptecle. Do I pigtail 14ga. onto the 8 ga. right behind the outlet then tap into the outlet?

3. Last but not least. My life's question. And I have searched the book for this with no answer. What can you use in conduit? Since the beginning, every electrician has told me when using conduit, indoor or outdoor, always pull THHN. You can't even use UF. Then, my teacher told me, you can use anything, even romex provided its not outside. He's the first person I ever heard say this. What can you use in conduit besides THHN? What about wiremold?

Thanks guys
Click to expand...

THHN can not be ran outside in conduit,however most thhn is also thwn and that can be ran.Many forget to read the label
 
ok, fist of all I have an NEC, second of all, i search through that thing so much its probably in worst shape then yours. I know thhn can be run in conduit, i know not to trust everything your teacher says. the requirements to teach those classes is very minimal if you have a license. the requirements to get a license is very minimal if you have the hours, which in turn clearly shows my reasoning for not quitting my classes. the power to the shed is a branch circuit but thats insignificant. all i was wondering was how you loop an 8 ga. on a standard switch without using relays. i figured you can pigtail a 14 or 12ga. to it in a box? I do have the nec and nowhere in it has it specified that every single countertop in a kitchen must have gfci protection regardless of a sink or not. it has also not specified that NM sheathed cable can or can't be run in conduit. i brought this up to my teacher and he told me whatever the code does not specify is allowed considering it only states the minimal requirements. I'm wodering can I run romex in conduit? can I run UF in conduit? can i run romex in wiremold? The best electricians have told me absolutley not, but my teacher told me sure, I should listen to him, right?
 
iwirehouses said:
I do have the nec and nowhere in it has it specified that every single countertop in a kitchen must have gfci protection regardless of a sink or not.
Click to expand...

What year NEC are you looking at?

Look for 210.8(A)(6)

As far as the 8 AWG simply switch to 12 or 14 AWG at the first box in the garage.

Regardless of the 8 AWG the circuit will still have to be a 15 or 20 amp circuit.

By the way the EGC will have to be 8 AWG as well.
 
dana1028 said:
Mike - I wholeheartedly disagree.
Click to expand...
dana1028 said:

Some instructors get uptight/hostile when questioned in class; they make it uncomfortable to dispute or refute possibly incorrect information.
Click to expand...


I stand corrected.

My advice was bad advice and I beg forgiveness for this tragic mistake.

I too use this forum as well as others in the classes that I teach. I always teach my students to check every thing they are told in the NEC this includes what I say.
I always welcome questions and debate in the classroom as I was assuming that his instructor would do the same.


 
iwirehouses,
You need to read the NEC very carefully. It cannot be read in the same maner in which you would read a newspaper; every word is important.
You say that you have not found a requirement in the NEC that requires kitchen countertop receptacles to be GFCI protected; Look at 210.8. It says that "all 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personel." (6) says "Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve countertop surfaces." That is about as clear as anything that is stated in the NEC and it is not hard to find.
You cannot connect a 8 AWG conductor to a switch; see 110.14(A) which prohibits conductors larger than AWG 10 being connected with "wire binding screws". You would need to transition to a normal wiring size somewhere in the buiding.
Also look at 334.15(B) which tells you that type NM Cable may be installed in conduit for protection from physical damage.
This is all pretty basic stuff, that is fairly plainly written in the NEC; there are many things that are much more obscure and open to different interpretations. Even though you feel that you have studied the NEC thoroughly, it is evident that you are still missing many basic concepts. Keep on studying and asking questions, but most of all read the code for itself. The answers to most of your questions are there, you just need to read carefully.
 
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haskindm said:
iwire,
You need to read the NEC very carefully. It cannot be read in the same maner in which you would read a newspaper; every word is important.
You say that you have not found a requirement in the NEC that requires kitchen countertop receptacles to be GFCI protected; Look at 210.8. It says that "all 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personel." (6) says "Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve countertop surfaces." That is about as clear as anything that is stated in the NEC and it is not hard to find.
You cannot connect a 8 AWG conductor to a switch; see 110.14(A) which prohibits conductors larger than AWG 10 being connected with "wire binding screws". You would need to transition to a normal wiring size somewhere in the buiding.
Also look at 334.15(B) which tells you that type NM Cable may be installed in conduit for protection from physical damage.
This is all pretty basic stuff, that is fairly plainly written in the NEC; there are many things that are much more obscure and open to different interpretations. Even though you feel that you have studied the NEC thoroughly, it is evident that you are still missing many basic concepts. Keep on studying and asking questions, but most of all read the code for itself. The answers to most of your questions are there, you just need to read carefully.
Click to expand...


I think that you meant to address iwirehouses not iwire in your response.
 
jwelectric -- thankyou, you gave me just what I was looking for, a simple answer to an easy question that I didn't know. I figured that you use 8 to feed the 300 feet, then switch over in the first box. I just needed to confirm it.

haskindm -- I have read the code carefully and 210.8 is my most familiar part. I was fully aware of (6) kitchens, but was not sure if they figured all counter tops had sinks or not. I probably should have assumed they meant every counter top, but that would be the reason why I asked, to clear up my uncertainty. again, a simple yes or no. I must admit that even though I searched, I never saw where it states NM can be run in conduit. thank you. i apologize. can UF be run in conduit outdoors?
 
iwirehouses said:
ok, fist of all I have an NEC, second of all, i search through that thing so much its probably in worst shape then yours. I know thhn can be run in conduit, i know not to trust everything your teacher says. the requirements to teach those classes is very minimal if you have a license. the requirements to get a license is very minimal if you have the hours, which in turn clearly shows my reasoning for not quitting my classes. the power to the shed is a branch circuit but thats insignificant. all i was wondering was how you loop an 8 ga. on a standard switch without using relays. i figured you can pigtail a 14 or 12ga. to it in a box? I do have the nec and nowhere in it has it specified that every single countertop in a kitchen must have gfci protection regardless of a sink or not. it has also not specified that NM sheathed cable can or can't be run in conduit. i brought this up to my teacher and he told me whatever the code does not specify is allowed considering it only states the minimal requirements. I'm wodering can I run romex in conduit? can I run UF in conduit? can i run romex in wiremold? The best electricians have told me absolutley not, but my teacher told me sure, I should listen to him, right?
Click to expand...

Take a look at your roll of THHN most will say THHN/THWN.Without that THWN you better rethink running it in conduit outside
 
Marc, the xxx.22 sections of the conduit and tubing articles of the 2005 NEC cleared this up from previous code cycles, using RMC for example,
344.22 Number of Conductors
The number of conductors shall not exceed that permitted by the percentage fill specified in Table 1, Chapter 9.
Cables shall be permitted to be installed where such use is not prohibited by the respective cable articles. The number of cables shall not exceed the allowable percentage fill specified in Table 1, Chapter 9.
Click to expand...

Roger
 
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