Knob and Tube Loom?
- Thread starter TSET
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Bubbles666
Member
- Location
- Ohio
Knob and Tube
Knob and Tube
I know this is sacro-ligious but you twist it very gently about 4 inches on each side then solder very carefully then reslide loom back over. And put it on a 15 amp arc fault breaker. Oooo..it hurt to say that!
Knob and Tube
I know this is sacro-ligious but you twist it very gently about 4 inches on each side then solder very carefully then reslide loom back over. And put it on a 15 amp arc fault breaker. Oooo..it hurt to say that!
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Bubbles666 said:
Putting knob and tube on an arc-fault breaker would be quite useless as K&T does not contain a ground wire, and AFCI's are more effective at "finding" N-G faults and parallel arcs than series arcs.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
I can't answer your question about what material would be acceptable to most inspectors, because I have no experience with having K+T work inspected.
You might consider using 'coated fiberglass sleeve', which is a nice insulating material, which finds modern use on things such as motor lead wires.
See McMaster-Carr page 775 (http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=775)
I use the following material in my professional work (electric motor research), and have used it (DIY notice) in my own home when ceiling boxes had crumbly insulation. The 'wire size' listed in the catalog is the size of something _bare_ that the sleeves will cover, so if you use the stuff _over_ other insulation, you need to get a much larger size.
-Jon
edited to make URL direct link to page
You might consider using 'coated fiberglass sleeve', which is a nice insulating material, which finds modern use on things such as motor lead wires.
See McMaster-Carr page 775 (http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=775)
I use the following material in my professional work (electric motor research), and have used it (DIY notice) in my own home when ceiling boxes had crumbly insulation. The 'wire size' listed in the catalog is the size of something _bare_ that the sleeves will cover, so if you use the stuff _over_ other insulation, you need to get a much larger size.
-Jon
edited to make URL direct link to page
Last edited:
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
There's some on eBay right now... http://cgi.ebay.com/Wireduct-Wire-L...4778713QQihZ019QQcategoryZ41499QQcmdZViewItem
Here's the old catalog page for the stuff:
Here's the old catalog page for the stuff:
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I dont know of an acceptable substitute. What's the problem, can't find loom? Get one box and it'll last you quite a while... Even if you only periodicaly have this type of work, due to a few buildings in your area that have a need for it. But if you have a lot of buildings wired in this method, you're best to just invest in a box.
When I do this type of work I usually recycle old loom, knobs, and tubes from jobs. Although, I have access to new product of simular quality, it saves a trip sometimes. However most old loom will be fairly stiff, if usable at all, it's best new.
FYI you only need it to enter/exit a J-box, for going through framing, or crossing other conductors you can tape a tube in place.
Also I wouldn't follow Bubbles666's advice for putting splices in the loom itself, unless that splice can be both supported on both sides, and away from the framing. At which point loom is unnecessary in this wiring method.
Anyway here is some usfull info on the methods:
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/KnT1.pdf
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/wusplice.pdf
When I do this type of work I usually recycle old loom, knobs, and tubes from jobs. Although, I have access to new product of simular quality, it saves a trip sometimes. However most old loom will be fairly stiff, if usable at all, it's best new.
FYI you only need it to enter/exit a J-box, for going through framing, or crossing other conductors you can tape a tube in place.
Also I wouldn't follow Bubbles666's advice for putting splices in the loom itself, unless that splice can be both supported on both sides, and away from the framing. At which point loom is unnecessary in this wiring method.
Anyway here is some usfull info on the methods:
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/KnT1.pdf
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/wusplice.pdf
Loom and Doom
Loom and Doom
Thanks for the info on that loom material, that looks great. After I posted my question, I searched "Knob" on the archives. I was a bit discouraged, possibly abit confused by the information I found there. The Job that I am looking at has the typical new-to-old splicing nasties that I'm sure most of you have seen, plus some J-boxed work that, on the surface, looks pretty good, but I'm sure was unpermitted.
From what I could glean(sp) from the posts, it sounds like you can feed old K&T from new romex, but not the reverse? I don't want to get into soldering (especially in a hot attic), so J-boxing is the way to go, but the flying neutral only, or hot only splices need re-work, containment, and jumpers. It seems, from my reading, that there is no allowed single conductor or Romex usage for thse jumpers. Its a rule for me never to use old wire in repairs, due to unknowns, so it seems there is no repair option, for some of this work, just replacement. Have I read this right?
Loom and Doom
Thanks for the info on that loom material, that looks great. After I posted my question, I searched "Knob" on the archives. I was a bit discouraged, possibly abit confused by the information I found there. The Job that I am looking at has the typical new-to-old splicing nasties that I'm sure most of you have seen, plus some J-boxed work that, on the surface, looks pretty good, but I'm sure was unpermitted.
From what I could glean(sp) from the posts, it sounds like you can feed old K&T from new romex, but not the reverse? I don't want to get into soldering (especially in a hot attic), so J-boxing is the way to go, but the flying neutral only, or hot only splices need re-work, containment, and jumpers. It seems, from my reading, that there is no allowed single conductor or Romex usage for thse jumpers. Its a rule for me never to use old wire in repairs, due to unknowns, so it seems there is no repair option, for some of this work, just replacement. Have I read this right?
Halloween wiring
Halloween wiring
Thanks Mark, my reclaimed inventory is looking shy. Looks like I'll havve to put the customer off. My main concern is passing inspection. I have to talk to my local "good guy" inspector. The solution, may just have to cost the customer more than he wants to spend on a house that he's selling (fallen through due to "scary" electrical in attic).
Halloween wiring
Thanks Mark, my reclaimed inventory is looking shy. Looks like I'll havve to put the customer off. My main concern is passing inspection. I have to talk to my local "good guy" inspector. The solution, may just have to cost the customer more than he wants to spend on a house that he's selling (fallen through due to "scary" electrical in attic).
Mark, I'm getting "file damaged" or some such response whe I try to download either PDF. Could you send the files (not links) to my email??
That is: TRSTSE@Lanset.com
Much appreciated, Todd
That is: TRSTSE@Lanset.com
Much appreciated, Todd
arc fault
arc fault
Peter, I think the latest generation of arc-faults is effective at series faults also (more effective?, I can't say). That was one of the major selling points for requiring wider use, as I recall.
arc fault
peter d said:
Peter, I think the latest generation of arc-faults is effective at series faults also (more effective?, I can't say). That was one of the major selling points for requiring wider use, as I recall.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
TSET said:
Sure, but beware... 4.5MB download time. They are older pdf's but if you have a current adobe reader they should work fine.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
TSET said:
Not necessarily. For recepticals you can extend from K&T through a GFI device, and add labeling "No equipment ground", and "GFCI Protected" - See 406.3C, and otherwise you need to obtain an EGC, in the past, before the addition of the 5' rule on water based electrodes you would only need to connect to any cold water pipe, those days are unfortunately gone. Now it would need to comply with 250.130(C).
Not quite getting the point here? If this only repair... What is wrong with the current installation? Bad spice? A cut or deteriorated wire? Simply remove the damaged wire and replace with a new conductor - say solid THHN/THWN, and put it right back the same way. (Same path, same knobs and tubes, same loom.) If the attic is accessible you could even use a wire nut, (Although not the prefered method) so long as the rules of splice support are followed.
- Location
- Massachusetts
augie47 said:
I am not sure but I think even the new ones ignore series faults.
The new ones are supposed to recognize an arc at much lower current levels than the old versions 70 amp threshold.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
SquareD certainly _claims_ to have series arc detection:
http://www.squared.com/us/products/circuit_breakers.nsf/unid/617D2D6F3F84CFB6852571F1005D526F/$file/comboafciFrameset.htm
NEMA also says that 'combination' devices have series arc detection down to 5A.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I have to wonder what the level of nuisance tripping will be..... but that becomes a discussion for another thread
-Jon
http://www.squared.com/us/products/circuit_breakers.nsf/unid/617D2D6F3F84CFB6852571F1005D526F/$file/comboafciFrameset.htm
NEMA also says that 'combination' devices have series arc detection down to 5A.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I have to wonder what the level of nuisance tripping will be..... but that becomes a discussion for another thread
-Jon
donselectric
Senior Member
- Location
- nh
i just use a piece of rx jacket
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