Knob and Tube wiring -- insulation contact in attic...

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

billygoat58

Member
Location
Medina Ohio USA
All, Have been called in by a homebuyer to do some lighting revisions to a 1950's vintage home in a CLE suburb. I did a walkthrough and inspection of the first, second and attic areas of the home (revisions) are in first and second floors. Home is a combination of original and renovation builds...coupled with what appears to be some 'home handy work'. Consequently, there is K&T, BX and romex present. What concerns me is what I discovered in the attic. Appears that HO insulated the space (R-30 batts x 2) and there is K&T beneath (attic is all the original build). The HO had some inspection concerns covered for the buyer and that electrician told them there's no concern as regards to the attic insulation around the K&T. I've told the buyer that I disagree and that the attic area needs to be properly remediated of insulation and (for safety's sake) be re-wired beyond the attic plane to the panel. The HO is out of the equation now and the buyer is holding the whole $...and I'm ready to walk away if the buyer does not want to do the renovations correctly and to code (my liability). I know it's my right to refuse the work, but am I correct in interpretation of (I believe) 394.10?
 
billygoat58 said:
All, Have been called in by a homebuyer to do some lighting revisions to a 1950's vintage home in a CLE suburb. I did a walkthrough and inspection of the first, second and attic areas of the home (revisions) are in first and second floors. Home is a combination of original and renovation builds...coupled with what appears to be some 'home handy work'. Consequently, there is K&T, BX and romex present. What concerns me is what I discovered in the attic. Appears that HO insulated the space (R-30 batts x 2) and there is K&T beneath (attic is all the original build). The HO had some inspection concerns covered for the buyer and that electrician told them there's no concern as regards to the attic insulation around the K&T. I've told the buyer that I disagree and that the attic area needs to be properly remediated of insulation and (for safety's sake) be re-wired beyond the attic plane to the panel. The HO is out of the equation now and the buyer is holding the whole $...and I'm ready to walk away if the buyer does not want to do the renovations correctly and to code (my liability). I know it's my right to refuse the work, but am I correct in interpretation of (I believe) 394.10?
Click to expand...

The NEC first prohibited insulation around K&T in 1987, and yes, you are correct the practice isn't allowed.

This depends on how much liability you want to assume, and by your description, this is a rats nest, and needs a rewire. FWIW, I would be more worried about the BX and other stuff done (crap splices in that attic and elsewhere) by the less than scrupulous than any original K&T in good condition, even if the old K&T was touching or even covered by the insulation- insulation is fire retardant, and that wire would have to get awfully hot (badly over fused) to present a danger.
 
I don't see why you should be obligated to update any wiring that you didn't touch.

When doing just a single room remodel of old homes with k & T I will disconnect and remove what is supplying outlets/ switches etc in that room but leave the rest of the k & t intact as it is usually supplying other rooms as well. Then run new circuits or at least extend newer circuits to the room. Lighting on main floors sometimes gets left as K & T if wiring isn't all that accessible and they are not taking down a ceiling.

Now that AFCI comes into the picture not sure what I might do in some of those installs, those requirements change the game compared to before AFCI was an issue. Plus I haven't really done much in older homes for a few years now and AFCI was amended out of our code until the 2008 went into effect, but it was getting closer to the time that 2011 would typically go into effect before the 2008 finally got adopted here as well(mostly because of the opposition to accepting the 2008 without amending out AFCI rules, and the additional rules that hit in the 2008).
 
Thank you all for your responses. Generally, I don't run from a K&T home, as long as HO agrees to my repair plan and its price. That said and giving more details -- such as a recent-ish bath reno on 2nd, which has an unvented fan makes me wonder what other craptastic work was done by that GC within the walls and further, the HO's 'electrician' telling the buyer (as re to K&T wrapped in R-60 equivalent in attic), that there's nothing to worry about re that condition.

I've never had to test my business insurance and I hope never need to. I'm always concerned about my liability and where it begins and ends. That said, this home has so many 'pieces/parts' I'm concerned that my work would get lumped into any (potential) future claim. And having fully rewired K&T homes (and believing that to be the best and only way to do it), I'm just leery.
 
jumper said:
K&t...ack!!! Run or replace.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
K&T is very safe, the issues only arise when unskilled people mess with it.
Click to expand...


Where do you find someone that isn't unskilled or unqualified to work on knob & tube wiring?

Most of the K&T wiring here was installed back in the 20s and 30s and has been pieced togather over the years as the needs of the homeowner increased. The good thing is there is not much K&T left to deal with.

I agree with jumper and say replace that stuff. It had a good run but it's day is over. You will find that the insurance companies agree with this. It's more trouble to maintain than it's worth.
 
Agreed Growler -- having done whole house rewires and seeing both perfect K&T wire and brittle...the latter being so brittle you could snap it as if it were plastic, leads me to the practice of wanting to replace it all. And that is due to the fact that (especially older homes), you never know what that wire has been subjected to over its life.
 
growler said:
Where do you find someone that isn't unskilled or unqualified to work on knob & tube wiring?
Click to expand...

I am willing to bet the person asking this question of me is.

Beyond that one of the forum members who works out of San Francisco was still installing new K&T when extending / repairing old circuits.
 
growler said:
Where do you find someone that isn't unskilled or unqualified to work on knob & tube wiring?
Click to expand...

iwire said:
I am willing to bet the person asking this question of me is.

Beyond that one of the forum members who works out of San Francisco was still installing new K&T when extending / repairing old circuits.
Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that if the average homeowner in the average city across the US has a problem and needs an electrician will the electrician they call be quailfied to deal with K&T?

It appears that in the San Francisco area they used the K&T wiring method much longer than in many other areas of the country. I'm sure there are experts there.

I was really surprised to learn that in certain areas of Georgia (very small areas) they were still useing solder joints.

A few years ago I was at the Ford dealership and someone had traded in a model-T ford. Not a single mechanic at the dealship knew how to get the darn thing started and lucky for them there was a really old man handy that told them about the fuel shut off under the dash. The person that bought the model-T drove it away. It looked great and seemed to run well but I spotted it broke down or out of gas about two miles away from the dealership. Model-T was a great car for it's time. I have never driven one I just herd they were great.
 
billygoat58 said:
I know it's my right to refuse the work, but am I correct in interpretation of (I believe) 394.10?
Click to expand...

I don't believe so (also, it's 394.12 that discusses insulation, not 394.10).

The way I read this, 394.10 allows NEW K&T to be installed. 394.12 explains where new K&T may not be installed, which includes being under attic insulation.

I don't believe these sections deal with splices of new NM to new lights, even if they go back to existing K&T. That said, it's vague enough where an inspector could flag you on it, and I'd probably refuse that work myself if it required any new splices to existing K&T. Is there any option to just run a new NM circuit from the panel to feed the new lights without touching any existing wiring? Because that should be perfectly fine.
 
growler said:
What I'm saying is that if the average homeowner in the average city across the US has a problem and needs an electrician will the electrician they call be quailfied to deal with K&T?
Click to expand...

K&T is not rocket science, it's not even a model T. I think that any professional electrician should be able work around K&T. We all know a bad spice when we see it. I would ignore the untouched original K&T splices, those will be fine. I would examine every new splice I could find. Any place that NM or BX or zip cord :roll: has been spliced onto the K&T would be suspect.

In my own home I am down to just a few things on K&T, I have been slowly .... Who am I kidding very, very, very, slowly:D updating to NM. I did the high load things first and now just a few lights and one or two receptacles.

For me changing to NM had more to do with the fact a couple of K&T circuits ran pretty much everything.
 
iwire said:
In my own home I am down to just a few things on K&T, I have been slowly .... Who am I kidding very, very, very, slowly:D updating to NM. I did the high load things first and now just a few lights and one or two receptacles.

For me changing to NM had more to do with the fact a couple of K&T circuits ran pretty much everything.
Click to expand...

Same here - we should compare notes! lol

Right now I'm in the middle of migrating the last 14 circuits over from my old panel to the new one. It's taking far longer than it should.
 
BX deteriorated faster than k t in most of the places I have seen. I would urge a total rewire though, to get everything up to standard. The k t may not hold up a lot longer, the BX is likely on the edge as is. You may well be blamed for any future issues.
 
billygoat58 said:
Appears that HO insulated the space (R-30 batts x 2) and there is K&T beneath (attic is all the original build).
Click to expand...
If the insulation was placed against the K&T since the 1987 NEC went into effect in your area, then the assembly is against the Code.

I work in the inner Twin Cities of Minnesota where 90% (my estimate) of the housing stock includes K&T, and, because of the winters, most of it has always been in contact with some form of insulation. I've worked on systems in rock wool, expanded mica, asbestos, wood shavings, newspapers-laid-flat, sawdust, cork, and all the modern insulating materials.

Here, the AHJs agree that any thermal insulation, except foams, installed prior to '87 is to Code in contact with K&T (foams have never been evaluated for contact with rubber and cloth insulated conductors). Here, the general maxim is, "Uncovered K&T cannot be covered or recovered with thermal insulation in construction / remodeling happening now."

I agree with Iwire and User100's caution about hack wiring splicing and extensions off of existing K&T as being a most probable areas of concern.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top