Knob & Tube Splices

[jeff43222]

I was called in the other day on a job where a home inspector flagged a bunch of K&T splices and said they needed to be in j-boxes. The wiring in question is in joist cavities in the unfinished basement of a single-family dwelling. The splices he flagged weren't the original ones with the cloth tape and soldered connections; he flagged the ones that have been obviously done relatively recently (in once case, a bright red wire nut was visible under the tape).

I'm wondering how to proceed with this, as I'm not entirely convinced the code requires j-boxes in this case (all the wiring in question is K&T, no new wires were mixed in). Since this wiring method is no longer legal to install, the code doesn't have an article to address it (394 only applies to concealed K&T). Also, 300.15 doesn't mention this wiring method as one that requires a j-box for a splice.

And if a box is required, 314.3 seems to say I can't use nonmetallic boxes. If I have to use metal boxes, do I then have to ground all of them per 314.4?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

You do not need J-boxes and you are allowed to repair K&T .Can't magnify it's existance but you can repair it.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

As far as I could see, every instance of these new splices would qualify as a repair. All of the splices involved one K&T wire connected to one other K&T wire, and there was no slack in any of the wires. None of the new splices did anything to extend the existing wiring.

The homeowner doesn't really want to have to pay me to put in a bunch of j-boxes; she only wants to be able to put her house on the market. But the inspector is going to file an official report with the city listing the new splices as a "required repair," so I think the only way I can head him off is if I can demonstrate via a code reference or two that these repairs don't require j-boxes.

This inspector is not an AHJ electrical inspector; he is a private contractor licensed to do home inspections and file reports for truth-in-housing, and he acknowledged to me that he's not an electrician. He seemed like a reasonable guy, possibly open to me changing his mind on the subject if I can make a good case.

[ August 19, 2005, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[jim k]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I'm a home inspector (and a longtime lurker). Here're my thoughts:

Originally posted by jeff43222:
As far as I could see, every instance of these new splices would qualify as a repair. All of the splices involved one K&T wire connected to one other K&T wire, and there was no slack in any of the wires. None of the new splices did anything to extend the existing wiring.

Isn't that odd? K&T splices were made up with telegraph splices & solder. They hardly ever need repair other than to replace the old friction tape around them. If I had seen more than one or two splices that were intended to repair rather than to extend, I'd wonder what the heck was going on. In particular, I'd wonder if the remaining splices were in acceptable shape.

The homeowner doesn't really want to have to pay me to put in a bunch of j-boxes; she only wants to be able to put her house on the market. But the inspector is going to file an official report with the city listing the new splices as a "required repair," so I think the only way I can head him off is if I can demonstrate via a code reference or two that these repairs don't require j-boxes.

On the other hand, you could turn the table and ask him to show you the code reference that requires them to be in j-boxes.

This inspector is not an AHJ electrical inspector; he is a private contractor licensed to do home inspections and file reports for truth-in-housing, and he acknowledged to me that he's not an electrician. He seemed like a reasonable guy, possibly open to me changing his mind on the subject if I can make a good case.

Why not just explain that K&T wiring doesn't now, nor did it ever require its splices to be enclosed in boxes. Offer that he might be thinking of the requirement for boxes when transitioning to a different wiring method, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

One other thing is strange about this situation. We home inspectors are private consultants who work exclusively for the person who hires us - usually a home buyer. In general (there are minor exceptions) we're prohibited from disclosing the results of an inspection to anyone other that the party that hired us. (Unless that party directs us to disclose to someone in particular.) I would never dream of filing an "official report" with the city.

- Jim K

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

He is walking on thin ice.His report could cost the seller a sale or money.Should that happen he could end up in court needing to prove he was correct and have some code numbers he says is violated.My understanding is he is hired by the potential buyer as an extra set of trained eyes.Buyer now can go to seller and try to bargain a better price or walk away from this house.They know it has K&T that in itself should be enough to bargain a good price.While it was a good system so were 57 chevy a good car.Both are very old.Junction box's will not solve anything for this electrical system.Buyer and seller should meet you at the house and let you exsplain what is needed to keep it safe.If it needs a rewire perhaps they will split cost.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jim did a home inspector beat you up when you where a kid?

 

[physis]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

I would want GFCIs or money off the selling price to install them.

But you're already getting a great price Mr. Badger, alright, since you're an electrician I know you can put 'em in for say, $25 bucks. I'll knock off that much.

I've seen more than a few situations where, for whatever reason, after an HI got involved the property owners became convinced that everything MUST meet current code. And further that, somehow, the contractors should have known this, are responsible for making it current and other such mumbo jumbo.

I think sometimes there's some miss leading going on. I'm not going to speculate on why or how.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by physis:
But you're already getting a great price Mr. Badger, alright, since you're an electrician I know you can put 'em in for say, $25 bucks. I'll knock off that much.

The seller must also bare some responsibility in understanding the difference between a code requirement and a safety recommendation.

As an example, here in this state in order to sell a home you must have GFCI protection in the bathroom, this is a requirement, not a recommendation.

But this does not (last I knew) extend to the kitchen counter outlets.

When involved with selling or buying an item as costly as a house people should really do their homework or be willing to lose some money.

JMO, Bob

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Bob,they did not have HI'S back when i was a kid.
I am not saying HI have no value.For many it might be a good investment if they know little about construction.Where my problem with them begins is when they are not skilled enough to give an opinion but do it anyways and charge for it.Now if they had training and perhaps a test to back up there ability then fine,and i gather in some states they do.Personally i am looking into the idea of becoming one.Seems like a better choice than being an electrical inspector where you are required to back up your inspection with code.So what your saying is all they are is a set of eyes that might easily miss things or see things they think are violations.Sounds like a lot of money for very little value.

Bob, by chance are you a HI ? You seem to defend them a lot.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by physis:
But you're already getting a great price Mr. Badger, alright, since you're an electrician I know you can put 'em in for say, $25 bucks. I'll knock off that much.

That is kind of funny, when buying the house I live in now the sellers where quick to point out the new 100 amp 20 circuit service that was just installed.

I laughed and said that was only worth about $200.00 to me. I ended up getting the house for 15% less then it was listed.

[ August 20, 2005, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Where my problem with them begins is when they are not skilled enough to give an opinion but do it anyways and charge for it.

Many electricians are out there charging for poor work.

Whats the difference, as always it is buyer beware.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Now if they had training and perhaps a test to back up there ability then fine,and i gather in some states they do.

Yes, in this state there are pretty tough requirements.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
So what your saying is all they are is a set of eyes that might easily miss things or see things they think are violations.

[/b][/quote]

No, I am not, I would have to work under an HI for year to even get started.

What I do believe is that HIs are only good for our trade.

Here is how I see it.

1) The HI finds a real violation.

In this case shame on the electrician for installing a violation.

2) The HI is entirely mistaken about the violation.

At this point the EC sends the bill to whoever called them in and that person can seek money from the HI.

The only way an HI costs an EC money is if the EC has left violations and in that case I have no sympathy.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Bob,as an electrician just what would you be out if you bought a house that had no gfci.A few gfci receptacles and maybe 1 hour and 2 beers.Older houses will be lacking a lot more than gfci.They are called fixer ups.We can not expect to buy a 20 year old home and get a new one.The price they ask is for a used house in the condition it is at time of sale, not a new one.When you looked at the house you should be able to see whats not perfect.A smart HI could offer to inspect for free and take a percentage of the reduced price.Realtors for both seller and buyer surely would rather not have one involved,same goes for seller.Buyers hire them and that part is fine.But when they start telling them the house needs junction box's or gfci the problem begins.Now they have the buyer spending even more money to hire the electrician.Will that electrician be trying to get a few days work out of this ? If buyer nows closes on this house he will be calling this same man back to do the repairs.As to the idea that the buyer can ignore the items he points out then that's like going to a doctor and not taking his advice.

All i am saying here is just my opinion and you need not agree with them.I have ran service calls caused my HI'S .Often it is the seller who hires us to fix a minor problem that really was not a hazard and i see many other things he missed.So we fix what was on the list so he can close on the sale.Sure they been had but at this point all they want is to finish the sale and move on.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

"The only way an HI costs an EC money is if the EC has left violations and in that case I have no sympathy. "

That we agree on.But unless this is a new home or a 1 owner home it might be hard to know who did the shotty work.

Given the knowledge that some staets require test and working under someone first it might be a very smart move on my part to get the license now and get grandfather in.I am getting old and can not pull wires forever.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by iwire:

If I am buying an old house that does not have GFCIs in the bathroom the fact that it was OK when built does not protect my family, I would want GFCIs or money off the selling price to install them.

Maybe you shouldn't be buying an old house.
Why is it the sellers problem that you want something updated to current code? Why should it cost them money for something you want? If you want current you have to look current. Now as far as home inspectors go.....

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by iwire:
The only way an HI costs an EC money is if the EC has left violations

Or see the quote from the guy in the previous post

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by electricmanscott:

Originally posted by iwire:

If I am buying an old house that does not have GFCIs in the bathroom the fact that it was OK when built does not protect my family, I would want GFCIs or money off the selling price to install them.

Maybe you shouldn't be buying an old house.
Why is it the sellers problem that you want something updated to current code? Why should it cost them money for something you want?

They want to sell the house.

They can tell me to go pound sand and wait for the next potential buyer if they want.

It's no different then me saying I want you to paint the house before I buy it. It would be up to the seller to either tell me forget it or do it, no one is being 'forced' to spend any money.

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by electricmanscott:

Originally posted by iwire:
The only way an HI costs an EC money is if the EC has left violations

Or see the quote from the guy in the previous post

Explain please?

How is anyone being forced to spend money, the women homeowner does not have to repair anything she does not want to.

She can say no, I will not do that.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

"2) The HI is entirely mistaken about the violation.

At this point the EC sends the bill to whoever called them in and that person can seek money from the HI."

Let,s see.Only 2 choices seller or buyer
If seller they do this on own and will not be able to collect.
If buyer same applies
Am sure they have a disclaimer in there invoice.
Someone is out another $100 and nothing fixed.

Sounds like a TV repair scam to me.Severall years ago there was a company that never fixed anything.They made service calls and condemed the sets or gave a price so high that no one would go for it.Try and get your money back.Good luck

 

[roger]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Jim, I just think your jealous of these HI's and their knowledge.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Knob & Tube Splices

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Let,s see.Only 2 choices seller or buyer
If seller they do this on own and will not be able to collect.
If buyer same applies
Am sure they have a disclaimer in there invoice.
Someone is out another $100 and nothing fixed.

So I can assume that every service call you have gone on you have fixed the problem in one trip?

You never make a mistake that ends up costing the customer money?

It seems you want perfection and that ain't going to happen. :roll:

You said that they did not have HIs when you where a kid, well much has changed.

Many people used to work on their own cars.

Many people used to be capable of almost any home repair.

Well not any more, as time goes on fewer people know about blue collar type work.

That is why IMO HIs have become necessary.

A home inspection was a mandatory part of my mortgage and even though I was capable of doing it I am not a licensed HI (required here)

What is you answer to all this Jim?

Would you want people buying homes without any help?

Here at electrical forums we only hear about HIs that goofed up. It certainly happens, some HIs are bad and even good ones can make mistakes.

However many times HIs find extremely dangerous wiring that otherwise would be left unchanged.

But I guess that does not matter.... :roll: