Labor factor , Romex wiring vs. EMT installs. J

R

ronball

Senior Member
Location
Champaign Il.
Occupation
Electric Contractor
Just bid a 60 unit 4 story senior apt building using Romex. Now the GC, wants a price on doing it
in EMT. Any basic factors to use vs, starting all over from scratch. Thx, also Prevailing Rate Illinois
 
ronball said:
Just bid a 60 unit 4 story senior apt building using Romex. Now the GC, wants a price on doing it
in EMT. Any basic factors to use vs, starting all over from scratch. Thx, also Prevailing Rate Illinois
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I have to ask....why did you do all that work without verifying what was required?
Were there specs, plan notes, or more importantly....a city requirement?
 
If you typically do NM and try to do it in EMT, you will lose a lot of money. The processes used are very much different. For contractors experienced in doing EMT bidding against those experienced in NM, the cost difference will be typically be about 15%. For an NM contractor to try and do EMT, his costs will go up 30-50%.

We have a local subdivision where a contractor from the Chicago area, where you are required by code to use EMT, is bidding against NM contractors and winning over half of the jobs he bids.
 
cdslotz said:
I have to ask....why did you do all that work without verifying what was required?
Were there specs, plan notes, or more importantly....a city requirement?
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The original plans said code wiring was approved, then owner asked for a quote is doing it in emt. That why. Thx
 
What is your experience with each wiring method? What about working in different types of construction, such as wood vs metal framing, masonry/concrete, fire-stopping, etc?

You could do an experiment: Make a sample wall set-up to wire, say, from a receptacle to a switch to a light, using the same type of construction as the building you're looking at.

Wire it using NM, noting time and material costs. Remove it all and wire it again with EMT, again noting time and materials. Compare the two results and derive a conversion ratio.
 
Does your crew even know how to bend EMT and do wire pulls effectively or is all they know rope?
If you bid competitively and win, expect to lose money and use it as a training exercise probably.
If you bid to minimize the risk of losing money, expect to not be competitive.
 
Biggest issue I've had with switching from Rope to EMT is trying to get the EMT laterally thru the framing studs. (Only half Joking.) It is however a consideration for someone who has never piped a building as some runs end up longer than if you just pull in NM. Takes a little more thought to the layout. But advantage it lets a lot more modification after for "Oh, can I get a 30A over here next to this outlet now?".
 
Fred B said:
Biggest issue I've had with switching from Rope to EMT is trying to get the EMT laterally thru the framing studs. (Only half Joking.) It is however a consideration for someone who has never piped a building as some runs end up longer than if you just pull in NM. Takes a little more thought to the layout. But advantage it lets a lot more modification after for "Oh, can I get a 30A over here next to this outlet now?".
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One of the differences is how you layout your home runs...much different between the two wiring methods.
As far as getting the EMT in the studs, often a circular saw with a dado blade is used to cut notches in non-load bearing studs. Just lay the EMT in the notch. However, even though a nail plate is not required by the NEC, they are a good idea. With the EMT held in place by the notch, the drywall screw can run through it.
 
If The structure is steel stud then an option is to pull all the peanut screws and slide the studs a few at a time back over the emt.

Emt means steel boxes and lots of hardware to support you don't just hug the framing and strap like romex so for an outlet assembly you'll have instead of 30ft of 12 2 romex a crimp or greenee and a nail on box you'll have 4 sticks of 1/2 or 3/4 emt and 6 straps or so 2 connectors 3 couplings a couple brackets to mount to a 4 square and a mud ring and a ground screw then 30 ft of wire.
 
Just come up with some stupidly high number for EMT that he won't possibly accept and he will default back to NM. And make such that if somehow he does bite, then you will make oodles of money. For example, if you said you can wire a unit with NM for $5000, tell him $35000 for EMT.
 
CoolWill said:
Just come up with some stupidly high number for EMT that he won't possibly accept and he will default back to NM. And make such that if somehow he does bite, then you will make oodles of money. For example, if you said you can wire a unit with NM for $5000, tell him $35000 for EMT.
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Of that was me doing the work it may be close to needing 25k just to do the same as I can with 5k in romex. I'm real fast in one and not fast in the other.
 
ronball said:
The original plans said code wiring was approved, then owner asked for a quote is doing it in emt. That why. Thx
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What code? NEC? The city can overrule the NEC.
So there were no specs?
BTW.......EMT, GRC, MC, Romex, Smurf Tube.....are all "code wiring"
 
Also consider that while you can just slap in EMT for rough work (and it will look very rough if this is your crew's first time), any rack work where you want it to look somewhat professional is going to be difficult (try rippling 10x kicked 90s on a rack if you never have and make it look nice), and any exposed work is going to take 2-3x longer than a trained crew, because that needs to be dialed in to please the clients, and whoever your best guy is at bending will be on exposed work 100%.

Also consider larger pipe bending, which is almost a separate art from hand bending. Does anyone on your crew have experience with a 555/cyclone or an 881? Do you have to train your crew how to use the basic machinery? Figure that in. It's not a 10min bit of training.

We spent probably 50+hrs being trained on hand benders before starting out as fresh 1st years, and then it takes 1-2 years of daily practice to get to full speed. Same for electric/hydraulic benders, which was a separate class.

Pulling will be a bit of a mind-f if all you've done is rope, and there's all sorts of different ways to go about it for different runs and sizes of pulls.
Can you guys make up large heads quickly and efficiently? Run a tugger?

electrofelon said:
That's surprisingly not much of a cost premium and almost makes it seem like a no-brainer to go with EMT.
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I'm surprised too, I would have expected it to be much higher.
Honestly figured it'd be 50-100%, but I've never estimated romex outside of temp power.
 
NoahsArc said:
Also consider that while you can just slap in EMT for rough work (and it will look very rough if this is your crew's first time), any rack work where you want it to look somewhat professional is going to be difficult (try rippling 10x kicked 90s on a rack if you never have and make it look nice), and any exposed work is going to take 2-3x longer than a trained crew, because that needs to be dialed in to please the clients, and whoever your best guy is at bending will be on exposed work 100%.

Also consider larger pipe bending, which is almost a separate art from hand bending. Does anyone on your crew have experience with a 555/cyclone or an 881? Do you have to train your crew how to use the basic machinery? Figure that in. It's not a 10min bit of training.

We spent probably 50+hrs being trained on hand benders before starting out as fresh 1st years, and then it takes 1-2 years of daily practice to get to full speed. Same for electric/hydraulic benders, which was a separate class.

Pulling will be a bit of a mind-f if all you've done is rope, and there's all sorts of different ways to go about it for different runs and sizes of pulls.
Can you guys make up large heads quickly and efficiently? Run a tugger?


I'm surprised too, I would have expected it to be much higher.
Honestly figured it'd be 50-100%, but I've never estimated romex outside of temp power.
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Right I certainly agree and know that 15% figure is assuming a crew that is good at this type of work. Although I consider myself to be very good at EMT, I'm not sure I would be good at this type of EMT work. I would probably be too neat and slow. Non-exposed EMT is a somewhat unique niche in most parts of the country.
 
electrofelon said:
That's surprisingly not much of a cost premium and almost makes it seem like a no-brainer to go with EMT.
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That only applies where you have a contractor and electricians that are experienced in wiring dwelling units with EMT. Contractors and electricians without the experience will have costs much greater than that...maybe 50% more.
 
electrofelon said:
Right I certainly agree and know that 15% figure is assuming a crew that is good at this type of work. Although I consider myself to be very good at EMT, I'm not sure I would be good at this type of EMT work. I would probably be too neat and slow. Non-exposed EMT is a somewhat unique niche in most parts of the country.
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Oh yeah, I only had to "flat" a few times, and I hated it. Bruising pace and "just slap it in".
I've predominantly done exposed or at least rack-type work, good mix of big pipe, nice middle ground.
My estimating book (worth $10 so not great) says about 0.05hr/ft for 1/2" EMT+4w vs 0.018 for 12/3, but then you can combine romex runs in pipe, so maybe that's where the labor savings come from. Instead of 3x 12/2 runs you just have 1x 1/2" EMT run. Even more efficient when doing home runs, save 4-6x there.

I'd really have to spec a full job out both ways to see, but it can make sense when you think of how you're combining runs a lot with EMT.

But the foreman needs to be savvy to see that savings too.
 
My "per opening" price for EMT is about 3.5 times higher than my price for new construction in Romex

My EMT looks nice, but I don't do it enough to be fast or efficient
 
Did some remodeling in a commercial kitchen one time. Open wall but not open ceiling. Came down an interior wall and turned into exterior wall. Got it done but was a big pain in the behind. Had ceiling been opened would been much easier to run through attic and drop down that wall. Too little clearance (for me anyway) to get back to the exterior wall because of low pitch roof.
 
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