Labor unit question

[ishium 80439]

I just looked at a job in which ballasts and/or lamps need to be changed on a number of fixtures. The fixtures are a combination of 4' and 8' 2 lamp T12 277V. There are approximately 200 of them in a wide open warehouse (it has been disused for many years and they cleared everything out of it in preparation for product to move in). The lights are approximately 33' high. I need to give a unit price on relamping and relamping+reballasting (before you ask I already tried to convince the owner that he should just do it all now because it will be much more difficult to get to the ceiling when the place is full of product... he didn't want to do it).

The existing work is approximately 35 years old. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this and attach a labor unit to it. Right now I'm thinking to run through once, relamp every fixture, turn power back on, note which ones still aren't on and go back. I know this isn't terribly efficient but I think the only other choice is to have one person on the lift and one person at the switch. The switch person's only job would be to constantly turn fixture on and off after every lamp change. Also a waste of time.

So does anyone have any thoughts on a more efficient way to do this? How about a labor unit? If I go w/ plan A I'm thinking about .15 hours for a lamp change (including driving to the fixture, taking the old lamps out, installing the new ones) and an additional .4 hr for reballasting (noting which fixtures need ballasts, driving to them, unlamping, ballast change, relamping).

Thoughts?

 

[charlietuna]

Labor wise, or your end of it, it would cost about the same to retrofit the entire number of fixtures with energy saving ballast and lamps. I would attempt to convince the owner to invest in his future power bills - and i would give him a price on material with a small markup. Get your supplier to work with you on pricing the total number of lamps and ballasts. If this happens to be an air conditioned space, his payback will be very quick and his future failure rate will be minimal..

PS: check with your power company-they may qualify for a rebate??

 

[Buck Parrish]

If they are that old chances are the ballast will be leaking black gook. Perhaps PCB's I'm not sure.
I agree with Charlie. You better pick up a couple hand fulls of ends , too.

 

[Engineer83]

PS: check with your power company-they may qualify for a rebate??

This is a good point to look into as well. These rebates can really add up and make a project more lucrative for an owner. Have you considered redoing the lighting in the whole facility with 6 lamp high bays?

 

[ishium 80439]

As I mentioned in my first post the owner is not interested in anything but firing up the existing lights.

Any thoughts on the labor units and/or the most efficient way to do this?

 

[Dnkldorf]

Have you seen a floor plan of any kind yet?

 

[ishium 80439]

Again it is currently a wide open space (maybe 200' by 200' at a wild guess). There are existing lights in the ceiling, 17 across and 12 deep. The owner is interested in the absolute cheapest way to get light on in this existing space with the existing fixtures. I got a price of $14 per 4' ballast and $25 per 8'. There is no way that retro-fitting these light w/ new ballasts and tombstones (energy efficient)will be able to come close to the numbers of patching these things up as is. We all know this is not good long term planning but it is what the man who is signing the check wants.

So any thoughts on the labor units or the most efficient way to do this?

 

[CopperTone]

relamp and new ballast - 1 man hour
relamp only .15 man hour
ballast only .75 man hour
plus the cost of scissor lift rental - dont do this on a ladder - it is too hard.

leave the fixture switch on - bring new lamps up on the lift with you - take out old lamps -install new ones - if they light up move on - if not - verify power at the fixture - if so - change ballast - install new lamps - move on.

if I changed a ballast I would install new lamps too. maybe give the guy back the old lamps and tell them they are still good but used.
if he is too cheap for all new lamps then after installing new ballast try old lamps to see if they work if not then reinstall new lamps.

bring pad of paper up with you and write down what you replaced.

leave all old lamps and ballasts for him to dispose of.
done.

 

[ishium 80439]

This was the way I was thinking of doing it at first but I'm not real keen about live 277 33 feet in the air working off of a lift. That is why I was trying to think of a way to do this w/o backtracking, w/o working hot and w/o having one man there solely to operate switches on the ground.

 

[CopperTone]

277 hot - you do have to be careful - that hurts like a mother. the only other option is a helper on the ground shutting off power - so it seems.

 

[charlietuna]

If you are attempting to do a job like this without a groundman - or saying the job can't afford a groundman - i wouldn't do the job. Just my $.02

 

[CopperTone]

groundman - i agree now - i wouldn't want to do it hot either. double the labor rate.

 

[ishium 80439]

I was pretty sure that was the answer but I was hoping that there was a way around it. It just seems like a shame to have a guy whose sole job it is to flip a toggle switch a few times an hour.

Coppertone, at your rate of .75 that would mean if there were 100 ballasts to change it would take about 2 weeks. Do you think that's right? It seems a bit heavy to me.

 

[MJW]

I know you said the owner only wants to fire up what is there but there are some killer rebates in Colorado right now. A friend of mine did a retrofit with a contract price of around 60K. The customer got around 40K in rebates and a payback on the rest in less than 2 years. A wholesale house should be able to give you better details as they are really pushing this. It might be worth a phone call.

 

[DavisIMI]

For one man I think .75 would be right on the money. You have to consider getting in and out of lift to operate switch, get more lamps, taking covers off, changing out lamps, checking for voltage, figuring out whats wrong with the light, bad connections, bad ends, bad ballast. There are a lot of things that will eat up you time in a hurry. Some lights might go quickly but for the ones that are a pain in the --- you have to allow. It will all average out in the end. I know the type, the man wants it done as cheap as possible and don't want to pay for a helper. Make it worth your while. You'll be wishing you had used the .75 before its over.

 

[CopperTone]

my labor rate includes all of the following:

time spent looking at the job and figuring out how to do it
ordering the correct material
processing the billing for my material
set up for the job
clean up for the job
driving to and from the job
picking up material for the job
supervising apprentice or helper
in general - running the job
Actually doing the job
billing for the job
going to the bank to deposit check
overhead, profit

the labor rate isn't how long it takes you to do a task only - it is how you figure out what you need to charge to run a business properly, pay yourself, earn a company profit, and stay in business.

 

[yucan2]

I agree with CopperTone.

If the money isn't right, just leave the lights on long enough to find your way to the door.

1 moneymaker beats a 100 loser's any day.

 

[ishium 80439]

Point taken. My thought was to get a per unit price/ time allowance and then add the OH&P at the end. Certainly the labor needs to include things like loading material, unboxing, cigarette breaks, clean up, changing the plan after a dozen or so once you get a feel for the task at hand etc etc.

The driving to the job to look at it, driving to the bank, the phone calls to the suppliers, the time to pay their invoices, running the job etc I would figure as overhead. On this job maybe 12% of the total from above.

I was just trying to figure a base unit number to help me not only determine price but also time. My original thought of .4 does seem too low now that I think about it, I'm just not sure that .75 isn't too high. But I may be wrong. That is why I come here to ask questions and learn :smile:.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Again it is currently a wide open space (maybe 200' by 200' at a wild guess). There are existing lights in the ceiling, 17 across and 12 deep. The owner is interested in the absolute cheapest way to get light on in this existing space with the existing fixtures. I got a price of $14 per 4' ballast and $25 per 8'. There is no way that retro-fitting these light w/ new ballasts and tombstones (energy efficient)will be able to come close to the numbers of patching these things up as is. We all know this is not good long term planning but it is what the man who is signing the check wants.

So any thoughts on the labor units or the most efficient way to do this?

lift for one day. one guy. as it's wide open, order a big lift (4x8 or 4X10).
put everything on the lift.

turn every thing on, and make a pass. relamp it all. the ones that don't light,
hang a piece of surveyors ribbon on the new tube.

shut everything off, make the second pass, replace ballasts and 'stones.
if you have a bad 'stone, replace all of them, and the ballast as well.
if you have a bad ballast, replace the 'stones as well. all of them.

don't waste time troubleshooting.

lower lift to ground. turn on lights. collect check. make mental note to avoid
short sighted cheapskates in future.

call for lift pickup. go home and have a frothy beverage.

how much?

$1,000 + lift rental + 'stones + 38 ballasts ($25x38x1.25) + $125 consulting fee
+ 200 lamps with markup.....

um, lessee.... that is... carry the two.... flat rate, um.... $3,408.00

and be sure to wear your mittens when changing lamps... wouldn't want to
get your hands dirty.... :smile:

 

[ishium 80439]

I like that idea. I see that you mentioned 38 ballasts. These lights are in 17x12 configuration. That is a total of 204 lights. Of those 204, 46 of them are working. Certainly I don't think that all of the remaining 158 ballasts need replacing but I would think that more 38. Or maybe I'm wrong. I come here to learn.

And FWIW I have started gathering the info for retro fitting these lights just so I can put real dollars in front of the owner. I don't think he will go for it but I guess I should lead the horse to water and see what happens.