Lead Water Pipe

[Gonzito83]

I understand that a water pipe shouldn't be considered a supplemental electrode. Am I still required to bond the water main to the ground rod? Does a lead water main work as an electrode? Does the grounding electrode conductor have to stop at the ground rod and then run a grounding electrode bonding jumper between the rod and the water pipe, or can it run continuous without a break? Thanks in advance.

 

[ptonsparky]

A rod supplements the water line.

I do do not know why lead would not work. Lead piping is another health issue entirely.

The GEC should be continuous to the first electrode but after that it is your choice

 

[Besoeker]

A rod supplements the water line.

I do do not know why lead would not work. Lead piping is another health issue entirely.

Are you still allowed to use it?

 

[GoldDigger]

Are you still allowed to use it?

No new installs, but with the right water chemistry old existing pipes can be relatively safe.
No mandate to remove them that I know of, except possibly local codes.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[ptonsparky]

Are you still allowed to use it?

The solder used for copper piping has been changed due to health issues, I doubt lead pipe would make the cut for new installation. I have seen lead piping but it has been a long time.

 

[ActionDave]

I understand that a water pipe shouldn't be considered a supplemental electrode. Am I still required to bond the water main to the ground rod? Does a lead water main work as an electrode? Does the grounding electrode conductor have to stop at the ground rod and then run a grounding electrode bonding jumper between the rod and the water pipe, or can it run continuous without a break? Thanks in advance.

A metal water pipe at least 10' in the dirt is a grounding electrode.

You are required to bond all grounding electrodes present to the electrical system.

If your only electrode present is a water pipe you are required to add a suplimental electrode, usually a ground rod is easiest but there are others on the list.

You can run individual grounding electrode conductors to each electrode or you can jumper from one to another.

Do you have access to a NEC handbook? It can be an old one. There are some helpful illustrations in there. At any rate look at art. 250.50

 

[Besoeker]

The solder used for copper piping has been changed due to health issues, I doubt lead pipe would make the cut for new installation. I have seen lead piping but it has been a long time.

Lead free solder for copper wire connections has been used here for quite some years now. I don't know about pipe joints but the one's I have used are compression joints what don't need solder. And much of the piping is PVC for low pressure applications.

 

[Gonzito83]

I understand what you are saying. If it's existing, how would we know 10' is in the dirt?
I've seen illustrations. Some show straight runs and some not. But my real concern for me was with led pipes. I don't think the code mentions anything about using led pipes as grounding electrodes.

A metal water pipe at least 10' in the dirt is a grounding electrode.

You are required to bond all grounding electrodes present to the electrical system.

If your only electrode present is a water pipe you are required to add a suplimental electrode, usually a ground rod is easiest but there are others on the list.

You can run individual grounding electrode conductors to each electrode or you can jumper from one to another.

Do you have access to a NEC handbook? It can be an old one. There are some helpful illustrations in there. At any rate look at art. 250.50

 

[ActionDave]

I understand what you are saying. If it's existing, how would we know 10' is in the dirt?
I've seen illustrations. Some show straight runs and some not. But my real concern for me was with led pipes. I don't think the code mentions anything about using led pipes as grounding electrodes.

The code says Metal Underground Water Pipe, so I'm saying it qualifies. You don't know if it ten feet for sure, but it likely is. I would bond it.

 

[Gonzito83]

Thanks all for the Input. :thumbsup:

 

[Dzboyce]

First, are you actually dealing with lead pipe? Is it magnetic? With you being in NYC, the pipe could be old enough to be lead. Actual lead pipe hasn't really been used since before WW2. Galvanized steel pipe was predominantly used until copper took over. Now most plumbing is plastic.

lead was used in solder for copper pipe for years. Also lead was used in brass fittings and fixtures. Now solder is lead free. Also brass is lead free. Lead isn't a problem in pipe or fixtures, unless the ph of the water leaches the lead out of the pipe or fixtures into the water. Thirst is what happened in Flint, MI. THey changed water sources, it started leaching the lead into the water,.

You're only concerned with grounding though. So it doesn't matter if the pipe is lead, galvanized steel, plain black steel, copper, or other metal. If its metal of any kind, and more than X amount of feet, it needs to be grounded and/or bonded.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You don't know if the pipe is 10' that is partially why you have to use a supplemental electrode like a ground rod.

 

[kwired]

Only lead pipes I recall seeing were always on waste piping.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Every once and awhile I'll run into an undisturbed municipal water supply entrance into dwellings, especially in Old St. Paul. They are vanishing, as the fear of the toxicity of lead is widely experienced. And, more especially, because this is the home of the Land "where all the Men are good looking, and the Children are above average." (Garrison Keillor), and lead's effects on young brains is truly feared.

Even so, there are still many street-water-main to individual-dwelling lead pipes that were installed in the 1800s build out of the municipal water system.

So, I will routinely run to the first 5 feet inside the dwelling and land the GEC there . . . and bond around the water meter, as the dwelling water piping is very likely to be intact (that is, still all metal.) If a supplemental grounding electrode is installed in the vicinity of the GEC, or the lead water supply it is bonded to, I can jumper from the supplemental to the GEC / lead pipe.

 

[drcampbell]

Lead and steel have similar conductivities, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity) about one order of magnitude worse than copper and probably several orders of magnitude better than dirt.

My concern is that a ground clamp won't remain tight over the long term because lead is such a soft metal. But I have the same concern about thinwall copper pipe, which is widely accepted by electricians & inspectors. Can anybody confirm or deny?

 

[ptonsparky]

Lead and steel have similar conductivities, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity) about one order of magnitude worse than copper and probably several orders of magnitude better than dirt.

My concern is that a ground clamp won't remain tight over the long term because lead is such a soft metal. But I have the same concern about thinwall copper pipe, which is widely accepted by electricians & inspectors. Can anybody confirm or deny?

The concern may be justified but it still needs to be bonded. 'What ifs' don't matter.

 

[ActionDave]

Lead and steel have similar conductivities, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity) about one order of magnitude worse than copper and probably several orders of magnitude better than dirt.

My concern is that a ground clamp won't remain tight over the long term because lead is such a soft metal. But I have the same concern about thinwall copper pipe, which is widely accepted by electricians & inspectors. Can anybody confirm or deny?

I can confirm I have never had a problem with my copper water pipe.

 

[infinity]

We had a lead water pipe in my grandmothers house for 100 years. That might explain a lot about my family. :blink:

 

[JFletcher]

We had a lead water pipe in my grandmothers house for 100 years. That might explain a lot about my family. :blink:

A little lead is good for you. Just as long as it's in nanograms and not grains and feet per second.

Even TEL (tetra-ethyl lead). Lead paint. Lead pipes.... amazing anyone who was alive in the 70s is still around today.

 

[gadfly56]

First, are you actually dealing with lead pipe? Is it magnetic? With you being in NYC, the pipe could be old enough to be lead. Actual lead pipe hasn't really been used since before WW2. Galvanized steel pipe was predominantly used until copper took over. Now most plumbing is plastic.

lead was used in solder for copper pipe for years. Also lead was used in brass fittings and fixtures. Now solder is lead free. Also brass is lead free. Lead isn't a problem in pipe or fixtures, unless the ph of the water leaches the lead out of the pipe or fixtures into the water. Thirst is what happened in Flint, MI. THey changed water sources, it started leaching the lead into the water,.

You're only concerned with grounding though. So it doesn't matter if the pipe is lead, galvanized steel, plain black steel, copper, or other metal. If its metal of any kind, and more than X amount of feet, it needs to be grounded and/or bonded.

In Flint, MI they're pretty sure. A great many of the houses had lead feeders from the main to the house. The whole hoo-haa was the result of a change in water sources resulting in a change in water chemistry. The previous water chemistry kept the lead bonded to the pipe and the new chemistry tended to solubilize the lead. The solution was to re-establish the old chemistry but by then the political damage had been done.