LED access

[ronmath]

Would it be code compliant to install LED lighting behind storefront glass with no access to the space other than to remove the exterior glass? An architect wants to do this, but I am saying this is not an accessible installation. Do you agree or disagree and why?

Thanks!

 

[e57]

What class wiring would be concealed? Eitherway it's a bad idea...

 

[ronmath]

What class wiring would be concealed? Eitherway it's a bad idea...

Agree on the bad idea part, looking for code references for backup of my position. Even if all junction boxes are outside the inaccessible area, LED lights still need maintenance sometime. Maybe some inspectors could weigh in on this also?
I would assume at this point it is class 1 wiring.

 

[augie47]

How will access be gained ? Will it require the glass to be removed ?
If so how is that accomplished ?

 

[ronmath]

How will access be gained ? Will it require the glass to be removed ?
If so how is that accomplished ?

Yes, the glass would have to be removed. It is normal exterior storefront glass, so removal and replacement is not a simple (or inexpensive) task.

 

[augie47]

I'm afraid I can't take it beyond the "bad idea". I don't know of a Code section that would phohibit it.

 

[ronmath]

I'm afraid I can't take it beyond the "bad idea". I don't know of a Code section that would phohibit it.

I'm looking at 300.23 maybe? Although not specific to lighting. The glass is not designed to allow access?

 

[steve66]

I can't understand why the architect would want to create a space with no access. And then light it on top of that.

Isn't there a way to create an access panel?

As far as allowed or not, don't splices or connections have to be accessable? Can you somehow install this so the terminations are accessable? If not, I don't think it is allowed.

Steve

 

[LarryFine]

TYou could always ask the person who will eventually inspect it.

 

[ronmath]

TYou could always ask the person who will eventually inspect it.

That would be easy except this is a prototype to be buillt all across the country.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I'm looking at 300.23 maybe? Although not specific to lighting. The glass is not designed to allow access?

You said earlier that the glass had to be removed to provide access, so it does allow access.

But, I also think that I am in the bad idea, not a violation, group.

 

[ronmath]

It does allow access, but 300.23 states "Cables, raceways, and equipment installed behind panels designed to allow access, including suspended ceiling panels, ahsll be arranged and secured so as to allow the removal of panels and access to the equipment."

I would suggest that the windows are not "designed to allow access". If they had latches so they would swing out, then yes, but not a normal glass installation? It's good to hear from an inspector John.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Well Gus is an inspector too.

I might be along the lines of, I would really need to see it. I have a feeling that I'm not fully understanding the installation.

 

[Karl H]

That would be easy except this is a prototype to be buillt all across the country.

From what I've read so far, I don't want one here.

 

[e57]

Agree on the bad idea part, looking for code references for backup of my position. Even if all junction boxes are outside the inaccessible area, LED lights still need maintenance sometime. Maybe some inspectors could weigh in on this also?
I would assume at this point it is class 1 wiring.

For say remote class 2 power supply and no serviceable connections on the LED strip itself it would be OK - since most LED strips there are no lamps to change - or other maintenance to do on them - when they go - they are gone... (Throw away and start over.) If the Class 1 and 2 connections are not accessible - then no...

 

[Volta]

Would it be code compliant to install LED lighting behind storefront glass with no access to the space other than to remove the exterior glass? An architect wants to do this, but I am saying this is not an accessible installation. Do you agree or disagree and why?

Thanks!

Agree on the bad idea part, looking for code references for backup of my position. Even if all junction boxes are outside the inaccessible area, LED lights still need maintenance sometime. Maybe some inspectors could weigh in on this also?
I would assume at this point it is class 1 wiring.

No question if it is closed in by the finish of the building. It's not accessible. The question is whether or not that is allowable.

Class of wiring might matter here. If it is Class 1, then not more than 30 volts. Then subject to Art. 411, and when the conductors are run through a wall then use a Chapter 3 method [411.4(A)(1), 725.46].

Where is the outlet? Section 300.15 requires a box at each outlet for most wiring methods, except (A) through (M).

Section 314.29 requires boxes to be accessible.

Definition of Accessible, (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

 

[augie47]

It's not hidden. When push comes to shove, it can be accessed. There are lights inside filled silos and on top of towers that are certainly difficult and expensive to reach. There may be one in the ceiling of his store thats more difficult to reach. Unlike a disconnect or even a splice that you might need access to as they affect other items, this fixture can be discontinued and/or disconnected if the owner decides it's not worth the expense to reach it.
I have far bigger problems on my inspections than being concerned with an owners rightful but poor decision on fixture placement.

 

[e57]

~being concerned with an owners rightful but poor decision on fixture placement.

I know a lot of those - but the code is the code....

As mentioned with this particular fixture type - not much is serviceable - but if access is required - why not from the back inside?

Also - What is it these are lighting in this window? Obviously there is something there and it may need to be changed +/or cleaned from time to time....

 

[ronmath]

I know a lot of those - but the code is the code....

As mentioned with this particular fixture type - not much is serviceable - but if access is required - why not from the back inside?

Also - What is it these are lighting in this window? Obviously there is something there and it may need to be changed +/or cleaned from time to time....

This involves a new storefront put up over an existing building storefront. The existing building would remain "as is" with the new storefront built over it. The lighting installed between the existing storefront and glass portion of the new storefront is purely for decorative purposes with color changing, etc. Thanks for the views on this subject. As I have gathered from the responses, as long as all connections are kept accessible as defined by the NEC, there does not seem to be a limitation on the accessibility of the light fixture, just a poor design choice.

 

[e57]

This involves a new storefront put up over an existing building storefront. The existing building would remain "as is" with the new storefront built over it. The lighting installed between the existing storefront and glass portion of the new storefront is purely for decorative purposes with color changing, etc. Thanks for the views on this subject. As I have gathered from the responses, as long as all connections are kept accessible as defined by the NEC, there does not seem to be a limitation on the accessibility of the light fixture, just a poor design choice.

Like I mentioned before - many of these fixtures are not serviceable in any way - basically a circuit card with LEDs soldered to it. LED's are not indestructable - unlike many other electronic component they do have a limited life - while it is longer than any other type of lamp - they do burn out eventually. If not code compliance for connections which is debatable in this case (As most of thes fixture types are remote power supply - especially if color changing through DMX or some other type of controler...) - replacement at end of life cycle is still an issue however. If estimated life is 50,000 hours = 2083.3 days or 5.7 years.... OR LESS in many/most cases....

That said - I have done some lighting where the fixture was in a simular situation with class 1 wiring where the fixture removal was "fished" into place. i.e. Fixture mounted to a board and slid in a tray into place from one end of a window in a situation simular to what you describe. Only one window was operational. The whip for the first fixture secured to the next - and so on (3 strip flourescent fixtures fed by MC) to change the lamp or ballast - you needed to pull out the first, set it aside, then the second would pull out the next 2 (which has a pole on it) - Remove and set that aside and you could access the last... I have also done a sky-light with a cove 50' above stairs - access to it's lighting was from a curbed box around the skylight with a hatch in the side for access on the roof - the 8' fixtures would slide out on a track through an 8x8" hole.