LED Dimmers

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A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
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WI & AZ
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Electrician
I'm a little confused here. In my own home, I installed dimmable LED lamps in some pendant fixtures and they work just fine with a conventional incandescent dimmer switch. I am now seeing LED specific dimmers on the market and wonder what the difference is?
 

Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
Engineering for LED lighting is a rapidly developing field. There are now some LED lights with a micro-processor chip in them, that can determine what an old-fashioned dimmer is requesting. LED ready dimmers are now an older technology.
 

GoldDigger

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Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
I'm a little confused here. In my own home, I installed dimmable LED lamps in some pendant fixtures and they work just fine with a conventional incandescent dimmer switch. I am now seeing LED specific dimmers on the market and wonder what the difference is?

First, they would be designed to tolerate the capacitive load id an LED driver input.
Second, they would be tested with specific manufacturers ' dimmable LED units for proper operation.
Beyond that, I do not know, and it may vary with brand and model.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131005-0854 EDT

A/A:

I classify dimmers into two categories, two wire and three wire. The EGC (green wire) is not part of the wire count. A two wire dimmer only has hot in and out. A three wire dimmer requires neutral plus hot in and out, and may have more than three wires.

A two wire dimmer uses current thru the dimmer to provide power for the electronics in the dimmer. It is of some sort of phase shift, usually a time delay to turn on of a Triac. A simple rheostat could also be a two wire dimmer.

A three wire dimmer uses hot in and neutral to power the electronics in a phase shift dimmer, or the primary of a variable transformer. A Variac is three wire dimmer that adjusts the amplitude of the input sine wave by a variable tap on the transformer to obtain an output sine wave of variable amplitude.

A two wire electronic dimmer works fairly well with an incandescent load, can provide a wide dimming range, but may have startup problems when left in a low position when turned off. Or put in a low position when off. This problem seems to be corrected by the three wire dimmer.

There are no satisfactory dimmable CFLs in my opinion. Thus, no comments on dimmer operation.

The sample Cree 40 W equivalent LED I have previously discussed in other threads dims fairly well with a sine wave or phase shift type of input. But does not dim as low as an incandescent. This bulb dims with both a two wire or three wire dimmer. Same startup problem with a two wire dimmer as the incandescent. The three wire phase shift dimmer does not dim the Cree low enough because the maximum delay to turn on of the Triac is too short. The curve of light output vs applied average voltage for an incandescent provides better dimming characteristics than an LED from standard phase shift dimmers.

.
 

A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
Location
WI & AZ
Occupation
Electrician
131005-0854 EDT

A/A:

I classify dimmers into two categories, two wire and three wire. The EGC (green wire) is not part of the wire count. A two wire dimmer only has hot in and out. A three wire dimmer requires neutral plus hot in and out, and may have more than three wires.

A two wire dimmer uses current thru the dimmer to provide power for the electronics in the dimmer. It is of some sort of phase shift, usually a time delay to turn on of a Triac. A simple rheostat could also be a two wire dimmer.

A three wire dimmer uses hot in and neutral to power the electronics in a phase shift dimmer, or the primary of a variable transformer. A Variac is three wire dimmer that adjusts the amplitude of the input sine wave by a variable tap on the transformer to obtain an output sine wave of variable amplitude.

A two wire electronic dimmer works fairly well with an incandescent load, can provide a wide dimming range, but may have startup problems when left in a low position when turned off. Or put in a low position when off. This problem seems to be corrected by the three wire dimmer.

There are no satisfactory dimmable CFLs in my opinion. Thus, no comments on dimmer operation.

The sample Cree 40 W equivalent LED I have previously discussed in other threads dims fairly well with a sine wave or phase shift type of input. But does not dim as low as an incandescent. This bulb dims with both a two wire or three wire dimmer. Same startup problem with a two wire dimmer as the incandescent. The three wire phase shift dimmer does not dim the Cree low enough because the maximum delay to turn on of the Triac is too short. The curve of light output vs applied average voltage for an incandescent provides better dimming characteristics than an LED from standard phase shift dimmers.

.

So spending the extra money on a LED specific dimmer isn't the way to go? The dimming range on my install with a two wire dimmer is very acceptable.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131005-1715 EDT

A/A:

If you are happy with the performance, then you should be fine. With the cheap two wire dimmer I was able dim the Cree bulb to a lower level than with the three wire dimmer, but had the restart problem at low dimming levels.

.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Lutron's LED dimmers do not require a neutral. I believe the only difference between their standard incandescent dimmers and LED dimmers is the LED dimmer has a low level trim adjustment to prevent the lamp from flickering or not starting if the dimmer is at its lowest setting.

Many LED lamp manufactures recommend electronic low voltage dimmers which do have a neutral connection.
 
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