LED illumination for signs.

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sandsnow

Senior Member
Open question for anyone.
Have you seen much LED being used? We don't see too much. It seems to work good for small stroke letters, where you can't get proper clearances. I've seen it used as outline lighting also."
 

neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
I've done quite a bit of research on LED's in signage, but confess have never installed or worked on one. They're just not that popular. I can see them being used in signs for edge lighting and like Larry mentioned, small channel letters that just don't lend themselves to neon. They make great message centers. And scoreboards.

I may be a bit prejudiced, having spent most of my life in neon related work, but I do have some problems with LED lighting, the biggest one being the claims made by a lot of LED manufacturers when comparing to neon. Without going into detail, the false claims run the gamut and include longevity, energy efficiency, and brightness. Other problems - Some manufacturers will not allow local supply houses to stock their product, possibly prolonging a sign's down time. At the last major electric sign show in Las Vegas, I'm told 27 different LED manufacturers were represented. As it stands right now, none of the modules are interchangeable. Supply houses are definitely not going to stock 27 different brands that may or may not be in business next year. This may be nothing more than the LED industry "growing up". But as of right now, it is not standardized.

LED outline lighting, or border tubing (a string of modules encased in a flexible plastic tube), leaves a lot to be desired. I've seen this application, and I've quoted LED border tubing. At least 2x as expensive as neon, not near as bright, and not near as flexible (if you can draw it with a pencil, we can make it with neon).
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
LED illumination for signs

LED illumination for signs

You may not realise it, but LED's are in signs all around you!

I have been working for a number of customers, following after the sign folks who have just replaced the beon illuminated signs with LED illuminated ones. (I usually have to move the outlet to a different part of the sign- and the store takes this opportunity to add a timer).

The signs I am describing have letters perhaps 30" tall, with each "stroke" of a letter maybe 6" wide. The part you see is smooth, colored plastic... you have no idea that there are a multitude of LED's inside that letter.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
LED seem safer because there is no high voltage that could start arcing and cause a fire.

They don't appear to be taking off here yet.

Installers think because it is low voltage there are no rules to follow.
 

neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
sandsnow said:
LED seem safer because there is no high voltage that could start arcing and cause a fire.

They don't appear to be taking off here yet.

Installers think because it is low voltage there are no rules to follow.

Maybe you can help me with a running debate I have with other sign installers, Larry. As usual, my code book is in the truck at the shop, but NEC 600.7 states that signs shall be grounded. There are no exceptions to this rule, except in the case of neon tube supports that are spaced at least 3/4" from neon tubing.This tells me that metal channel letters, installed individually (not mounted on a raceway),with remote transformers, whether illuminated with neon or LED's must be grounded. I've never installed one and haven't had the opportunity to ask any of the local inspectors. What's your take on 600.7 and LED's?
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
I think once the Code catches up to the technology, it will be exempted.

The few I have inspected, I have not asked for bonding.

You are correct in that 600.7 does require the letters to be bonded together and bonded to the power supply.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
A lot of the sign companies are starting to use them in place of neon. The sign guys really like it because you don't have to worry about breaking the tubes or the high voltage.
 

WC7446

New member
Location
San Diego
I have yet to install a set of LED channel letters. I have not had a request either.

I may do a red set just for the heck of it one day, but as far as white or other colors, never! Maybe in coming years the LED technology will be there to match a good neon tube but not yet.

For now, they will only be illuminating my edge lit signs
 

neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
cowboyjwc said:
A lot of the sign companies are starting to use them in place of neon. The sign guys really like it because you don't have to worry about breaking the tubes or the high voltage.

Maybe in Simi Valley, but not in Cincinnati. I was installing many years before led's were even thought of, and I just installed my first set of led channel letters last week. I'm not sure what the sign cost, but I am sure that it was much more expensive than neon would've been (it was white led's). You can tell by my name that I'm prejudiced, but with good reason. The sign was half as bright as neon would've been; it drew 5 amps (the brighter neon would've drawn half that), and it won't last near as long as a good neon job would've.

BTW, this sign guy doesn't "worry about breaking the tubes or the high voltage."
 
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