LED lights affecting electronics like TV's

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Stevenfyeager

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United States, Indiana
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electrical contractor
I just heard from a contractor that LED lights affect his electronics such as a TV. He is making his electricians separate lighting circuits from outlet circuits. While a lot of us have usually separated lighting circuits from receptacles, I still run only ONE circuit to each bedroom. I have not had any trouble. Have you experienced any problems ? Thank you.
 
181121-2231 EST

Separating circuits does not necessarily provide noise isolation. They really aren't isolated. Why would separating circuits provide isolation unless you really isolated them, meaning some sort of filtering? A breaker does not provide any isolation.

There are LEDs that are noisy from an RFI perspective. I can easily expect a problem. I have RFI problems from some LEDs.

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Gar is right. Separating the circuits will not fix the issue if they're coming out of the same panel. You would have to do something like an isolation transformer to eliminate the noise.

Ive got a really diverse bunch of LED lighting in my unfinished basement, leftovers from jobs over the years. Some good qaulity and some are total junk. They make the breaker they're connected to "sing" whenever they're on. As well as create an unbalanced load back at the panel.

No matter how i balance the loads in my panel, when those LEDS are turned on they put about 1.5 amp on the neutral. Ive spent an unnecessary amount of time on this, and for the life of me can't get my loads balanced with those lights on. I can never get zero amps on the neutral with those lights turned on.

Ive heard of this happening in industrial buildings that go through LED retrofits. I worked on a job a few years back where we had to upgrade the neutral to a lighting panel because of the new LED lights going in. The lights were all fed from the same 2 pole breakers, so no neutral to them either. LED lighting just causes feedbacks that's might as well be magic to this electrician.



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No matter how i balance the loads in my panel, when those LEDS are turned on they put about 1.5 amp on the neutral. Ive spent an unnecessary amount of time on this, and for the life of me can't get my loads balanced with those lights on. I can never get zero amps on the neutral with those lights turned on.

That's confusing, the only way you wouldn't have current through the netural is if they ran on 240V.


There are two type of noise, conducted and radiated. I could see how seperate circuits might help the conducted (because of line length). I could also see how seperate circuits might help the radiated noise because of proximity of the homerun. Seperate circuits also let you put a filter on the offending line for lights. I always do seperate circuits now, #14 on lighting/smokies, #12 on outlets.

I have been doing much research in LED lights, the cheap dimmable ones pulse the LED even when on full. If you want a decent LED fixture you need to contact the manufacture and ask them which ones don't pulse. Tell them you are looking for a photograph room quality light.
 
What I wanted to say: The LED light fixtures are essentially running with triacs on their boards so they can dim. Sometimes they only use half the cycle per phase, I have seen some that do a skip thing every once in a while. If you put them on a scope they are junk. I was ready to go all in with LED fixtures with the non-dimmable version, they don't pulse (hardly detectable). Then the industry decided they needed dimmable, they went out and found the cheapest parts and dumped them on the American market. Nobody paid any attention, well I did. I made a pulse detector and returned any LED light that flickers. Millions of lights in this country pulse at a perfect 60 cycle rate and I mean pulse. Leds are fast, they can turn on/off in the a couple hundred nanoseconds.
 
That's confusing, the only way you wouldn't have current through the netural is if they ran on 240V.
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That's not correct.

If you balance the loads in a residential panel (or any multi phase panel for that matter) you can, in theory, have no current on the neutral. Not everything in that panel has to be on 240 for that to happen either.

Example - 10 amps on leg A, and 8.5 amps on leg B. You should get 1.5 amps on the neutral. Now, if you add a 120volt, 1.5 amp load to leg B you will have zero amps on the neutral. That's why neutrals are sometimes sized only for the "unbalanced" loads.


Side note - try recording a crappy LED light in slow motion in your phone. You can almost count the the rise and fall of the sine wave



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That's confusing, the only way you wouldn't have current through the netural is if they ran on 240V.

I typed a bit too fast on that answer, I thought they were troubleshooting. Never heard of load balancing with that small of a current.

The answer to load balancing is "never going to happen" with triacs clanking away on the AC line.


Also; Is there a button someplace to edit a post. Thanks
 
181123-0929 EST

LEDs are a moderately constant voltage device. This means that, if supplied from a constant voltage source, then some means of current limiting is required between the constant voltage source, and the constant voltage load, or if the voltages are not exactly equal you will burn out the LED. Three components exist that can limit current. These are resistors, inductors, and capacitors. Resistors dissipate energy, to a major extent inductors and capacitors don't.

Under steady state DC conditions an inductor becomes a resistor, and a capacitor an open circuit.

Under transient conditions with no initial stored energy, and at the instant of applying a voltage an inductor is an infinite impeder, and a capacitor a zero impeder.

Under steady state AC conditions an inductor is an impedance of some value, and a capacitor is an impedance of some value.

In a normal AC distribution systems we are dealing with an approximately constant voltage source. Thus, an impedance is needed between the source and the LED. This impedance is usually mostly an inductor to reduce power loss and avoid current peaking.

Current adjustment to the LED for dimming purposes is usually done by time controlled input to the inductor by a controlled switch. The switch is likely an FET, and not a Triac. For screw in bulbs dimming is usually controlled by an external phase shift dimmer (a chopped input sine wave). The phase angle of turn on is sensed inside the bulb and its internal circuitry uses that information to internally control dimming. Or average input voltage is used as the signal to control dimming. In all cases there will be an internal high frequency oscillator to reduce component size.

Even when dimming is not part of the objective it is mostly likely that high frequency switching is used as part of the current limiting function to reduce component size and cost.

Unless AC is converted to DC and then back to AC there will be higher than line frequency components going back into the AC supply.

Since each individual bulb has its own internal oscillator that runs independent of other similar bulbs on the same circuit we can not expect synchronization between the separate oscillators. This means it is hard to predict what the actual net current on the neutral will be when we try to balance two circuits with the same neutral.

Certainly there can be both conducted and radiated noise from the oscillators in the bulbs. I have some Feit bulbs that over about 110 V input will oscillate at about 1 MHz. This noise is conducted throughout my home, and on my power company, DTE, secondary lines. These secondary lines also feed two street lights. From the power company secondary lines there is radiated noise. I don't know how much of this 1 MHz power goes thru the 50 kVA pole transformer to its primary lines. Tried to do a test today, but there is a lot of RFI from something else in the 900 to 1000 kHz range today.

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I typed a bit too fast on that answer, I thought they were troubleshooting. Never heard of load balancing with that small of a current.

The answer to load balancing is "never going to happen" with triacs clanking away on the AC line.


Also; Is there a button someplace to edit a post. Thanks
Gotchya. Yeah, the load balancing on the small current was just me messing around at home.

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181123-0929 EST

LEDs are a moderately constant voltage device. This means that, if supplied from a constant voltage source, then some means of current limiting is required between the constant voltage source, and the constant voltage load, or if the voltages are not exactly equal you will burn out the LED. Three components exist that can limit current. These are resistors, inductors, and capacitors. Resistors dissipate energy, to a major extent inductors and capacitors don't.

Under steady state DC conditions an inductor becomes a resistor, and a capacitor an open circuit.

Under transient conditions with no initial stored energy, and at the instant of applying a voltage an inductor is an infinite impeder, and a capacitor a zero impeder.

Under steady state AC conditions an inductor is an impedance of some value, and a capacitor is an impedance of some value.

In a normal AC distribution systems we are dealing with an approximately constant voltage source. Thus, an impedance is needed between the source and the LED. This impedance is usually mostly an inductor to reduce power loss and avoid current peaking.

Current adjustment to the LED for dimming purposes is usually done by time controlled input to the inductor by a controlled switch. The switch is likely an FET, and not a Triac. For screw in bulbs dimming is usually controlled by an external phase shift dimmer (a chopped input sine wave). The phase angle of turn on is sensed inside the bulb and its internal circuitry uses that information to internally control dimming. Or average input voltage is used as the signal to control dimming. In all cases there will be an internal high frequency oscillator to reduce component size.

Even when dimming is not part of the objective it is mostly likely that high frequency switching is used as part of the current limiting function to reduce component size and cost.

Unless AC is converted to DC and then back to AC there will be higher than line frequency components going back into the AC supply.

Since each individual bulb has its own internal oscillator that runs independent of other similar bulbs on the same circuit we can not expect synchronization between the separate oscillators. This means it is hard to predict what the actual net current on the neutral will be when we try to balance two circuits with the same neutral.

Certainly there can be both conducted and radiated noise from the oscillators in the bulbs. I have some Feit bulbs that over about 110 V input will oscillate at about 1 MHz. This noise is conducted throughout my home, and on my power company, DTE, secondary lines. These secondary lines also feed two street lights. From the power company secondary lines there is radiated noise. I don't know how much of this 1 MHz power goes thru the 50 kVA pole transformer to its primary lines. Tried to do a test today, but there is a lot of RFI from something else in the 900 to 1000 kHz range today.

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cause you went a little over my head there.. you're saying it is the high frequency switching of the LED drivers radiating that noise onto our line conductors? I know that's probably a little over simplified.

Can this effect cause false readings when using a clamp on amp meter?

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The only thing I’ve noticed is that LEDs in garage door openers make the remote almost useless due to interference. I’ve also had a few complaints about TV remotes having a reduced range when LEDs are close to the TV but I would guess those are RF remotes and not infrared...
 
I do know that automotive LED tail and brake lights are not on continuously, but actually flash at somewhere around a 50% duty cycle, to create brighter light with a lower average power usage, mainly for cooler operation. They rely on persistence of the eyes to appear continuously on.

Next time you're behind a vehicle with LED taillights, move your eyes horizontally and you'll see the intermittent operation appear as a dotted light trail.

I imagine that residential and commercial LED lights and bulbs do the same thing for the same reason, which means that the LED's themselves receive a fluctuating current and probably generate much more electrical noise than they would from a steady current from a standard switching DC power source.
 
my bathroom LED light fixture causes massive noise to my FM radio in my living room and gets worse when I dim it using 0-10v dimmer and they're different circuits. someday I'll try some experiments to reduce it, like ferrite beads or shielded dimmer wire.
 
181123-2019 EST

WarrMann:

First, any unwanted signal can be called noise. Noise can be any combination of frequencies and waveforms, or simply random variations with no specific frequency or amplitude. White noise sounds like a hiss, has specific statistical characteristics, and no specific frequency. White noise is a random signal.

A conducted signal is one transported over conductors (wires) from the point of origin to the point of reception. This conduction may also radiate the signal thru space such that the signal gets from the origin to the destination without wires.

If you have an AC/DC, and battery power radio that receives noise when plugged in, but not when on battery power, then that is conducted noise to the radio. If the radio is unplugged, and operated on battery, and the noise is heard, then that is radiated noise.

Radiation is easier at high frequencies with short wires.

Noise is usually a problem if it has significant frequencies within your band of interest.

The squarer or sharper the shape of a waveform the more high frequency components it contains. Fourier analysis.

Phase shift dimmers are also a noise source.

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I just heard from a contractor that LED lights affect his electronics such as a TV. He is making his electricians separate lighting circuits from outlet circuits. While a lot of us have usually separated lighting circuits from receptacles, I still run only ONE circuit to each bedroom. I have not had any trouble. Have you experienced any problems ? Thank you.

Gar's hypotheses may be very well correct... However I'm going to go much lower tech.

How physically close are the LED light or lights to the television? If your contractor has this problem and can reproduce it, a video of what exactly is happening to the television may greatly help narrow down what is going on.

As I see it, you have two choices when doing projects under this person: you can comply with his request, and charge more if necessary, or you can spend the time investigating and debunking his claim. The second option may send you back to step 1 if he does not believe you or is not convinced by your findings.

Given that option number 2 is going to require basically unpaid time and is not 100%, I would wire it as he requests.
 
181123-2047 EST

LarryFine:

You pose an interesting psychophysical experiment.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychophysics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_theory
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.2016083

Wilson P. Tanner mentioned here was my psychology teacher in 1953. I became one of his subjects in vision experiments. He was in the lit school, but worked on a government contract in the electrical engineering department. That summer he hired me to work for him in the Electronics Defense Group of the EE departmemt to develop test equipment for his experiments. A switch was made from doing light intensity tests to acoustic tests.

An LED's light output is somewhat linear with current, but at higher currents starts to drop off. If we hold average current constant, therefore approximately constant power dissipation in the LED, but change duty cycle, and therefore increase peak light output, then does the eye and brain respond with the perception that the pulsed light is brighter than the constant light? One would use a pulse rate high enough to get well above the flicker frequency.

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181123-0929 EST



I have some Feit bulbs that over about 110 V input will oscillate at about 1 MHz. This noise is conducted throughout my home, and on my power company, DTE, secondary lines. These secondary lines also feed two street lights. From the power company secondary lines there is radiated noise. I don't know how much of this 1 MHz power goes thru the 50 kVA pole transformer to its primary lines. Tried to do a test today, but there is a lot of RFI from something else in the 900 to 1000 kHz range today.



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How was this measured? Scope Aliasing Considered? What Amplitude?

A little high in Freq. in my experience for an LED switcher Freq.
 
181123-2329 EST

ELA:

Measured in two ways. Scope, and AM radio. The about 1 MHz oscillation was a spurious unwanted side effect of the circuit.

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I should finish my findings with the flickering LED lights. I contacted two manufactures and they are aware of the problem and designing units that don't flicker, they just need to dump all the old stock first.:rant: The new fixtures are designed to control a constant DC current (for dimming) to the LEDs so they won't flicker. Unfortunately they are still using a switching power supply concept to get power off of the AC so they will continue to be noisy. I presume it will take a few generations of electronics to get this at the optimum. I would recommend to folks that if you read by LED lighting then try to verify no flicker. Ways to do this are; move your hand back an forth quickly or if you have a desk fan that spins, look for the strobe effect. There are so many filtering concepts..............
 
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