LED lights on arc fault breakers

[OGstyx]

I'm currently working on a 4,000 square foot new construction lakehouse. I have just started the trim out and am having issues with Edison screw shell LEDs. Every 3-5 seconds there will be a very minor flicker from the lamp. I've put them in multiple fixtures, multiple different circuits, still does it. Funny part is it does not effect fixtures on the same circuits that are internal LED fixtures with no screw shell to put lamps in. I even went today and got a different brand LED (GE relax LED).

Before anyone brings up dimmer switches, im aware of the issues there. All my dimmers are universal Leviton dimmers. Also, the lights that are flickering are not on dimmers, just single pole decora switches.
The bedroom lights, which I have on dimmers, are the internal LED fixtures with no lamps and they work fine, even on same circuit.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the arc fault breakers. I haven't tried using a regular breaker but this is what I'm thinking must be the problem.

Anyone ever have this issue or have any advice?

John
Local 236 Albany, NY

 

[480sparky]

I'd start with verifying a consistent voltage.

 

[retirede]

You might try installing an incandescent bulb and then cycling the switch a few times.
The theory being that the LEDs don’t draw enough current to “burn the new” off of the switch contacts.
A long shot, but easy to try.

 

[OGstyx]

You might try installing an incandescent bulb and then cycling the switch a few times.
The theory being that the LEDs don’t draw enough current to “burn the new” off of the switch contacts.
A long shot, but easy to try.

So I also have tried incandescent, halogen, and CFLs. They all function normally.

 

[OGstyx]

I'd start with verifying a consistent voltage.

So I also have tried incandescent, halogen, and CFLs. They all function normally.

 

[winnie]

Imho the arc faults are a red herring. If you were having arc fault problems they would just trip.

LEDs are often very sensitive to voltage disturbance. I'd check switches as suggested above, and also check for loads that are cycling on and off, eg electric heat.

If you can get some sort of recording volt meter that will also help you.

Jon

 

[OGstyx]

Imho the arc faults are a red herring. If you were having arc fault problems they would just trip.

LEDs are often very sensitive to voltage disturbance. I'd check switches as suggested above, and also check for loads that are cycling on and off, eg electric heat.

If you can get some sort of recording volt meter that will also help you.

Jon

I have fixtures with internal LEDs on same circuits with no issue. Its very bizarre.

 

[Fred B]

I have fixtures with internal LEDs on same circuits with no issue. Its very bizarre.

I've seen where the drivers between different led on same circuit causes interference on lower grade led (Edison led). Also seen same with CFL or florescent in line. It seemed to be a driver incomatability, not sure if that is the case with yours.

 

[mopowr steve]

I’ve been having issues similar to yours
See my post “Flickering LED fixtures”

 

[winnie]

Fred B makes an interesting point. Remember that LEDs are not directly driven by the AC line; there is always a driver circuit.

A driver could be designed to completely compensate for supply fluctuations. The AC supply could jump all over the place, but the light output would be stable.

But people want dimming. This means that the LED driver has to somehow detect the dimming. Different drivers of the same quality might very well respond differently to supply fluctuations.

Or some noise on the line might trigger the dimming circuitry even if the AC supply is actually stable.

Jon

 

[retirede]

Use process of elimination.

1) De-energize ALL other circuits at the panel.
2) Remove decora switch and wire nut the switch leg.
3) Replace AFCI breaker with standard.

If they still flicker, it has to be the bulb. If not, which step above resulted in them stopping?

 

[Little Bill]

Use process of elimination.

1) De-energize ALL other circuits at the panel.
2) Remove decora switch and wire nut the switch leg.
3) Replace AFCI breaker with standard.

If they still flicker, it has to be the bulb. If not, which step above resulted in them stopping?

You can forget Step #3. The AFCI will have nothing to do with the flickering. The AFCI either works or trips, it doesn't effect the voltage going out from them.

 

[retirede]

You can forget Step #3. The AFCI will have nothing to do with the flickering. The AFCI either works or trips, it doesn't effect the voltage going out from them.

I agree. I only mentioned it (last) because that was the subject of the thread.

 

[hbiss]

am having issues with Edison screw shell LEDs. Every 3-5 seconds there will be a very minor flicker from the lamp.

Do they all flicker at once or is each one flickering by itself at random?

The theory being that the LEDs don’t draw enough current to “burn the new” off of the switch contacts.

I'll add for what it's worth- I've had problems with those bulbs in outdoor fixtures as a replacement for incandescents. It seems like they don't make contact and will flicker, not light and even light dimly. What works sometimes is to forcefully screw them in and out, then they will be OK for awhile. There is no visible corrosion in the lamp socket but apparently is enough to cause the LED problems because of its low current draw. This seems to happen with just about all outdoor fixtures I have encountered and I've given up using LEDs in them. They're crap.

I think I'm going to invent an Edison base abrasive screw-in to clean the lampholder shell.

-Hal

 

[Flicker Index]

Such question should always include the brand and model of the LED lamp.

Imho the arc faults are a red herring. If you were having arc fault problems they would just trip.

LEDs are often very sensitive to voltage disturbance. I'd check switches as suggested above, and also check for loads that are cycling on and off, eg electric heat.

If you can get some sort of recording volt meter that will also help you.

Jon

LED elements have no "inertia" so to speak and issues like shimmer, stutter and flicker are entirely the function of the LED ballast and control accessories used with it. The disposable integrated ballast inside of consumer LED lamps have to be made extremely cheaply since they have to be provided for each lamp that only costs several dollars as a whole and they're made to be minimalist and often have very poor regulation and have no resistance to any type of line disturbance.

If you want absolutely smooth dimming, usually the best ones are wirelessly controlled bulbs as they usually have a 0-10v ballast inside and the internal wireless controls the 0-10v terminals inside the housing.

 

[AC\DC]

Easy solution possible. The tabs in the socket sometime are recessed quit far back. All these new leds connection point to the tab are completely flat, unlike the old incandescent cfl. Mostly see this when people swap to led lights. Bulb flickers occasionally when it starts getting warmer, the. Burns out especially fast. Just a thought. I have came across this on some new cans also.
Just pull it back

 

[garbo]

I'm currently working on a 4,000 square foot new construction lakehouse. I have just started the trim out and am having issues with Edison screw shell LEDs. Every 3-5 seconds there will be a very minor flicker from the lamp. I've put them in multiple fixtures, multiple different circuits, still does it. Funny part is it does not effect fixtures on the same circuits that are internal LED fixtures with no screw shell to put lamps in. I even went today and got a different brand LED (GE relax LED).

Before anyone brings up dimmer switches, im aware of the issues there. All my dimmers are universal Leviton dimmers. Also, the lights that are flickering are not on dimmers, just single pole decora switches.
The bedroom lights, which I have on dimmers, are the internal LED fixtures with no lamps and they work fine, even on same circuit.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the arc fault breakers. I haven't tried using a regular breaker but this is what I'm thinking must be the problem.

Anyone ever have this issue or have any advice?

John
Local 236 Albany, NY

Had that trouble in my house. I had LEDS from 2 lack of quality control china companies. Purchased LEDS made in the USA that carry a 5 year warranty that have been working great last 2 years.

 

[mopowr steve]

Do they all flicker at once or is each one flickering by itself at random?



I'll add for what it's worth- I've had problems with those bulbs in outdoor fixtures as a replacement for incandescents. It seems like they don't make contact and will flicker, not light and even light dimly. What works sometimes is to forcefully screw them in and out, then they will be OK for awhile. There is no visible corrosion in the lamp socket but apparently is enough to cause the LED problems because of its low current draw. This seems to happen with just about all outdoor fixtures I have encountered and I've given up using LEDs in them. They're crap.

I think I'm going to invent an Edison base abrasive screw-in to clean the lampholder shell.

-Hal

I’ve found that many times it used to be that they no longer soldered the led lamp driver wire to the shell of the bulb. Instead they just crimped the shell against the wire, I guess they just hope that works.......NOT