LED tube timer control contactor specs needed

[barb]

Hi,
I am trying to control some led tube light fixtures with Talento Smart c25 made by Grasslin . We are using 120 volt in USA.
The LED fixtures that we are trying to control have LED tubes that are ballast bypass and directly connected to 120 volt. In total we have 15 LED tubes in the circuit.

Specification of the led tube is : Sylvania 75027, 17W T8 LED - 2100 Lumens - 48" - 5000K - Ballast Bypass

The manufacturer of the timer stated that due to inrush current of the LED tubes they have limitation on these timer. Here is the limitation they have in their specs for LEDs:
Load LED-lamps < 2 W Max. 30 W
Load LED-lamps 2-8 W Max. 100 W
Load LED-lamps > 8 W Max. 120 W

We contacted Sylvania to get more information regarding the inrush current generated by their LED tube. Their specs doesn’t specify the LED driver details so we had to contact the technical team. They got back to us and said for 120volt the inrush current generated by each LED bulb is about 7 amps.

The timer manufacturer told us in order to use the number of LED lamps stated above we have to use contactor to protect the timer.

Now I am trying to find a d-rail mounted contactor with a good manufacturer that can be used. But the world of contactors is very vast and very technical. I tried to learn more about contactors types but it gets very complicated and my technical knowledge doesn’t allow me to really understand what exactly is needed. There are a lot details in the specs of contactors like AC1, AC3… inrush power…short time withstand current…

For example LC1D12G7 made by Schneider will work? It has short time withstand current specified at 105 for 10 seconds. I know the inrush current of LEDs are in milliseconds… so I am not really sure if I am at the right path here or not?

the 15 led bulb regular current draw would be like 2.1 amp but the inrush current would be 105 amp…

Just wanted to make sure i am in the right path...

 

[Jraef]

Any contactor rated for the cuntinuous amps and an AC1 utilization category is fine for this because as you said, the inrush is extremely brief. It is just the capacitor charging current for the LED driver which is generally considered insignificant in the world of contactors and is why the Grasslin people suggested that you go that route. Inside of the timer itself, the inexpensive contacts they use are more susceptible to that.

Alternatively you could use a better time clock, like a Tork or Intermatic that has heavy duty contacts rated for 20 or 30A.
http://www.nsiindustries.com/catalo...al-time-switches/digital-time-switches/dg100a
https://www.intermatic.com/en/timer-controls/electronic-controls/et1105c

I don't know what features you are looking for, these are just examples.

 

[barb]

The reason we are going with the talento is the ease of programming with a smartphone vie bluetooth interface. We need to do a lot of holidays and astronomic programming for multiple circuits multiple times a year so if we could use it safely with a proper contactor it would be good investments. other timers we have looked at from intemratic or tork are not as easy as talento for the type/frequency of programming we need thought the year.

If someone can look at the spec for LC1D09G7 attached to double check if that would be proper spec for our use. it has a 25 amp for AC-1 9 amp for AC-3. also it has rated short-time withstand current rating of 120-140 amp for 500-100 ms signalling circuit with I am not sure if that's the spec i need to consider for in-rush current of the LED drivers? or that has nothing to do with it? There is also a in-rush power rating of 70VA... maybe that's something i have to check for in-rush current of LED drivers?

Given that we have 15 led tubes and 7 amp of inrush current for each that would be 105 amp total of in-rush current ...
our steady current would 15x .14 amp= 2.1 amp

 

[Jraef]

The reason we are going with the talento is the ease of programming with a smartphone vie bluetooth interface. We need to do a lot of holidays and astronomic programming for multiple circuits multiple times a year so if we could use it safely with a proper contactor it would be good investments. other timers we have looked at from intemratic or tork are not as easy as talento for the type/frequency of programming we need thought the year.

If someone can look at the spec for LC1D09G7 attached to double check if that would be proper spec for our use. it has a 25 amp for AC-1 9 amp for AC-3. also it has rated short-time withstand current rating of 120-140 amp for 500-100 ms signalling circuit with I am not sure if that's the spec i need to consider for in-rush current of the LED drivers? or that has nothing to do with it? There is also a in-rush power rating of 70VA... maybe that's something i have to check for in-rush current of LED drivers?

Given that we have 15 led tubes and 7 amp of inrush current for each that would be 105 amp total of in-rush current ...
our steady current would 15x .14 amp= 2.1 amp

The inrush rating of 70VA you are reading is the inrush of the CONTACTOR COIL, which has zero relation to the capacity of the contacts of the contactor.

The 140A max for "signalling" is referring to if you used the contactor to turn on other contactors (what we call "interposing") and is lower because those are assumed to be inductive loads (other coils). That doesn't apply to your situation.

Here is what applies to you:

210 A <= 40 °C 1 s power circuit

That spec means it can handle 210A for 1 second (1,000msec). Your "inrush" for the LED drivers will last approx. 16 msec...

 

[barb]

The inrush rating of 70VA you are reading is the inrush of the CONTACTOR COIL, which has zero relation to the capacity of the contacts of the contactor.

The 140A max for "signalling" is referring to if you used the contactor to turn on other contactors (what we call "interposing") and is lower because those are assumed to be inductive loads (other coils). That doesn't apply to your situation.

Here is what applies to you:

That spec means it can handle 210A for 1 second (1,000msec). Your "inrush" for the LED drivers will last approx. 16 msec...

Thanks Jraef for your great feedback. so it looks like we are good to go in terms of both AC-1 rating as well as the the "inrush" rating with this contactor. thanks for your help again!

 

[barb]

The inrush rating of 70VA you are reading is the inrush of the CONTACTOR COIL, which has zero relation to the capacity of the contacts of the contactor.

The 140A max for "signalling" is referring to if you used the contactor to turn on other contactors (what we call "interposing") and is lower because those are assumed to be inductive loads (other coils). That doesn't apply to your situation.

Here is what applies to you:

That spec means it can handle 210A for 1 second (1,000msec). Your "inrush" for the LED drivers will last approx. 16 msec...

Hi Jraef, one thing forgot ask was that, are these current ratings specified per each Pole of the contactor or sum of all poles?

L1 has 210 capcity, L2 has 210, L3 has 210 OR

total sum of current going through L1+L2+L3 is limited 210...

 

[Jraef]

Hi Jraef, one thing forgot ask was that, are these current ratings specified per each Pole of the contactor or sum of all poles?

L1 has 210 capcity, L2 has 210, L3 has 210 OR

total sum of current going through L1+L2+L3 is limited 210...

Per pole. Don't look at this as "210A", that is a short term rating just to show that it is OK with some amount of inductive loading. The contacts are rated 25A.

If the circuit is 120V, it's 25A on each separate pole of the contactor. But if the circuit is 240V, that is 25A on each pole, but it's still 25A at 240V. You don't call that 50A.

 

[barb]

Per pole. Don't look at this as "210A", that is a short term rating just to show that it is OK with some amount of inductive loading. The contacts are rated 25A.

If the circuit is 120V, it's 25A on each separate pole of the contactor. But if the circuit is 240V, that is 25A on each pole, but it's still 25A at 240V. You don't call that 50A.

Sure, I totally understand the 210 rating. I was using that as an example. I should have phrased my question better.

Couple of question has come up.. FYI, this is all in commercial setting not residential...(office building)

1. Is there a local code that might require 3 separate enclosures and 3 separate contactor to isolate circuits. Attached is a rough diagram of the setting I have. each hallway circuit as described above. The Lobby is consist of 10 LED bulbs 10 w each.

2. Also is it ok to draw power from hallway breaker for the timer's power and NO contact? Given the setting I have is the timer still protected from Inrush current of the LED drivers going back to breaker? or i need to find different source of power for the timer (which is not very convenient given that our breaker box is full)

 

[Jraef]

Sure, I totally understand the 210 rating. I was using that as an example. I should have phrased my question better.

Couple of question has come up.. FYI, this is all in commercial setting not residential...(office building)

1. Is there a local code that might require 3 separate enclosures and 3 separate contactor to isolate circuits. Attached is a rough diagram of the setting I have. each hallway circuit as described above. The Lobby is consist of 10 LED bulbs 10 w each.

2. Also is it ok to draw power from hallway breaker for the timer's power and NO contact? Given the setting I have is the timer still protected from Inrush current of the LED drivers going back to breaker? or i need to find different source of power for the timer (which is not very convenient given that our breaker box is full)

You can do it as shown with one contactor, but if the breakers for each circuit are in a different panel from the contactor, you will need a 3 pole door-interlocking disconnect on that enclosure with the contactor that disconnects all 3 lines in order to open the enclosure. If you are in a "facility under engineering supervision with established safety protocols" you can possibly use just a warning label on the front stating that there are multiple sources of power entering that enclosure, then list exactly which breaker numbers they are. That's not as safe though.

 

[barb]

Sure, I totally understand the 210 rating. I was using that as an example. I should have phrased my question better.

Couple of question has come up.. FYI, this is all in commercial setting not residential...(office building)

1. Is there a local code that might require 3 separate enclosures and 3 separate contactor to isolate circuits. Attached is a rough diagram of the setting I have. each hallway circuit as described above. The Lobby is consist of 10 LED bulbs 10 w each.

2. Also is it ok to draw power from hallway breaker for the timer's power and NO contact? Given the setting I have is the timer still protected from Inrush current of the LED drivers going back to breaker? or i need to find different source of power for the timer (which is not very convenient given that our breaker box is full)

thanks for clarification, regarding the second question, when drawing power from hallway breaker, is the contractor safe from inrush current of LEDs or I have to find a different source of power ?

 

[Jraef]

thanks for clarification, regarding the second question, when drawing power from hallway breaker, is the contractor safe from inrush current of LEDs or I have to find a different source of power ?

It’s fine. Don’t worry about it.