LEED Score?

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e57

e57

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San Francisco, CA
Currently, (My Fair City) San Francisco is having an Board of Supervisers level vote to adopt the 2007 State codes Building, electrical, energy etc.) - but superceeding those by also adopting, and making MANDATORY something called a " Leed's Score" for all permits. (Public and private, commercial, and residential) Which would mandate certain design criteria in excess of our state Title-24 requirements.
Does anyone know exactly what effect this will have on the what's, where's, or how's of our trade?
As it sounds as if this is happening nationally in various places - how is it affecting you?
Please remember this is one of those borderline issues here - So no mention should be made of the who's or why's - just the what's, where's, or how's. Because in 6 months or so I have a Code, Standard, or Rating of some sort to stand up to, and I have no idea what or where it is.... Or how to do it.
[whimper]Help.....[/whimper]
 
I don?t know what a ?LEED?s Score? might be. But I know that ?LEED? is a registered trademark for the US Green Building Council. It stands for ?Leadership in Environmental and Energy Design.? Here is a link to their site:
http://www.usgbc.org

The concept is all about making design decisions and applying construction techniques that will lessen the adverse impact a new (or remodeled) building will have on planet Earth. It?s about ?being green,? being ?Earth-friendly.?

The problem is that people think that anything they do that is environmentally friendly can be described in terms of ?LEED Points,? or by using some other phrase that contains the (capitalized) word LEED. They can?t. It is trademarked. Your city best be careful about incorporating that word into their laws, unless they have the blessing of the USGBC.

Charles E. Beck, P.E.
LEED Accredited Professional

p.s. The good news for our side of the industry (i.e., all things electrical) is that there are very few LEED-related requirements that impact the electrical design or installation.
 
LEED score is refering to how many points the building gets. The USBGC has 4 different levels of certification depending on how many points the building receives. Certified, Silver, Gold, and Platinum. Based on the article you linked, in 2008 all buildings will be required to be Certified, or the lowest level. By 2012 all buildings will require Gold, which will require some design effort.

USGBC considers California's Title 24-2005 to be equivalent to ASHRAE 90.1-2004. But all LEED buildings now are required to earn 2 points in energy savings. So new buildings are required to use 14% less energy than Title 24.

Here is a scorecard for NC 2.2 (excel based)
http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=2245
 
I think they are mis-using the term, ?LEED.? There is a big, big difference between saying you will use the LEED standards as guidelines for the design and construction of a building, and saying you will achieve ?LEED certification.?

You don?t actually ?get points? for any environmentally-friendly achievement, unless those points are awarded to you by the US Green Building Council. They will not give you points, unless you first register the project with them. There is a very large fee for that registration. Also, in order to get awarded the points, you must prove to the USGBC that you have completed all related requirements. You must submit documented evidence, including such things as copies of plans, calculations, bills of materials, construction records, contracts, and photographs, whatever is needed to prove that you did what you said you were going to do.

The last time I was involved in a LEED certification project, the engineering fee for assembling and submitting the related documentation, and for reviewing and incorporating any comments from the USGBC, was on the order of $50,000. That is just for consulting services related to LEED paperwork. That did not include any design or construction support activities.
 
In 2005 the State of Michigan said that all State owned projects over $1 million needed to earn 26 points on a LEED scorecard. Some people started saying the buildings need to be certifiable but they didn't need certification. Like you said, you can't earn points unless USGBC said you've proved them.

I'll be curious how this is enforced in San Francisco. Is there a time limit on how long after occupancy that they must be certified. What will they do if the building fails certification. I doubt they'll close the building and a fine might be cheaper than $50k in documentation and fees.
 
Actually the city won't be superceding anything since the California Building Standards Commission has already adopted 2007 Green Building Standards.

Since 1989 no local government has had the legal authority to "supersede" the State Building Code without “special permission” from the Building Standards Commission. State law preempts them. At the time I am writing this, no city or county has any Special Permission although a few government agencies do. Periodically, the State Attorney General has to remind some jurisdictions of that though – it usually takes a few months for them to get the idea.
 
Here in CA if you just met the Title 24 standards you would have a very energy efficient building.

As rbalex said though many jurisdictions need to be reminded here in CA. The thought process of many jurisdictios was, "if the state wants it, let the state enforce it".
 
Thank you gents! - this is exactly the type of info I'm looking for. I've been worried how this will all go down - still am.... As no particulars have been announced as of yet. But appears that much of this will be handled by title-24 (part 6) anyway... As well as some of our existing local regulations. (Some of the State energy stuff, waste disposal and recycling is local - covered already, "practices" scares me...)

rbalex, SF has superseded several building and electrical codes and several fire codes successfully in the past - every code cycle that I know of.... (Mostly in "Uses Permitted" of materials, and building type designations) But never have they tried to exceed part 6.... Curious as to how this will go down. But from some of the stuff you posted - it may seem that they could be backed up on it?????

Mr. Bill, it seems that you have had to deal with this before? If so, what else do you know, or have experienced? Where did you find that score card - I was scouring through the fluff on their site for a few hours and couldn't find it.

My fear of this is that I am going to continue to play the bad guy on title-24 issues, and now have some even more vague standard to live up to by means of a "Score card". It's bad enough as it is, to have to force feed fluorescent lighting and various controls down peoples throats that they have no interest in. As well as to have to continue to educate the "educated" Designers and Architects on the flaws in their design and plans. (And without stepping on the toes while doing so... As the onus will still be mine to comply, it would seem.) Then tell try to meet some arbitrary "Score" based on the opinion of some sort of third party.

"Sorry Sir, you need to have 20 solar panels or you'll fail your electrical inspection..." Hard enough to get them to approve the Service up-grade and panel locations that they really need to do!
 
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There was a time, a few years back, San Francisco indeed HAD "special permission" with some structural codes. It was even documented on the Building Standards Commissions' website. I can no longer find it. I was doing research about 3-4 years ago and my contacts at the BSC confirmed that no local jursidictions had any special permisson any longer.

Special Pemission approvals will usually be listed on this page

Edit add: San Francisco may be illegally enforcing local amendments; it doesn’t get “fixed” until someone complains to the BSC. OR it may be they are enforcing some of the State agency amendments that don't appear unless you purchase the actual California Building Codes.
 
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I do a lot of documentation for LEED projects in our office. All variety of LEED points. I've read thru a majority of the CIR's available online. If you have a specific question I'll try but I don't know where to start downloading.

The USGBC website is a terrible design for navigation. Links are blended in with mass text and wording is not intuitive for finding information. I found this link somewhere else on their site first. But the fastest way to get to it is starting at USGBC and clicking on LEED at the top center of the page. Then click on the first link New Commercial Construction. At the end of the first sentence after LEED NC Version 2.2 it says Checklist. Sure, it's easy to find stuff after you've found it. But this wasn't where I found it when I was first looking.

Right now the USGBC is accepting comments on improving their website. Look on the right side under News and Information.
 
Still looking for black and white "Requirements" that are not so vague. Installation of specific lighting or controls, and where, under what circumstances....

Like:
'All task lighting must be LED, and controlled by motion sensing devices that only sense finger movement in the task area - and the device must only have a delay of 2.5 seconds to shut the fixture off.' (Sounds extreme until you hear the complaints of people soaped up in the shower with our current State standards for bathroom lighting controls)

Or Mandatory pin and socket based dimmable CFL lighting in say - bed rooms? Where it's hard to force feed people these type of things in other rooms as it is now.

On one of the check lists they have "Light pollution reduction" Does that mean Hooded floods, or someone out there with a lumen meter? It sounds like to get the credit for it - it's the lumen meter? (Page 15 of the link above)

Still not able to figure out where the 2007 title-24 (part 6) will stand on the "equivilent" of this:
http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=1703

Mr. Bill in post 3 you mention 14% less than T-24 - which one current - or the new, I'm assuming you got that from that link there?
 
e57 said:
Oh and someone PLEEZE.... Tell me there is no "magnetic field survey" or anything like that involved?
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Okay, there is no magnetic field survey required by LEED. I've only heard of magnetic fields being a concern in hospitals. But I've never been asked even there for a survey.

LEED energy requirements are based on ASHRAE 90.1. The only real power requirements are to limit voltage drop to 2% for feeders and 3% for branch circuits.

The lighting requirements can get details. When you do power density calcs use the ballast/lamp combo for the wattage. But incandescent wattage is based on maximum socket rating. So a screw in compact fluorescent lamp in an incandescent socket has to be counted as the socket rating. Some manufacturers will provide a lower wattage UL label if requested.

Task lighting does not have to be LED but it does have to be included in the power density calcs. Those little quartz lamps are energy hogs and LED might be preferable.

Interior lighting in buildings larger than 5000 sq. ft. require automatic control devices to shut of lighting in all spaces. Meaning occupancy sensors or timed controls. Sensors are allowed up to 30 minutes for shut off. There are a few exceptions for 24-hour use and patient care.

Dimming is not required but daylight harvesting may help in the annual energy use calcs. If you're aiming for tax savings with EPAct 2005 then it requires bi-level switching in all spaces with few exceptions.

Accent and Display case lighting requires a separate control device. Task lighting needs an integral or nearby wall mounted control device. Hotel and motel guest rooms requires a master control device at the main room entry to control all permanently installed luminaires.

Exit signs are limited to 5W per face.

If you're counting the floor area for the space by space calc method then measure from the centerline of the walls. They use the word "partition". This way the space by space method and the whole building method has the same total square footage. And use the extra wattage allowances available for accent lighting and rooms with computer monitors. These extra allowances are not transferable to other spaces but they can help alot.

I don't know where the 2007 Title 24 will stand compared to ASHRAE 90.1. The most recent versions of LEED reference ASHRAE 90.1-2004. The next revision of LEED will probably reference ASHRAE 90.1-2007. But they haven't done that yet.

That 14% less energy use than Title 24 was for the 2005 version. That was from the link I provided. But if you follow Title 24 then you're still required to comply with the other provisions of ASHRAE 90.1.

These energy models are too expensive in my opinion. I wish there was an alternative compliance path. Not likely now that they require 2 points on this credit.

The light polution reduction credit I dislike. I've tried to get them to revise it but no luck. Version NC 2.2 does not limit you to full cutoff luminaires. They just limit the total initial uplight for the whole site. The amount of uplight is dependant on whether the building is in a rural zone or urban zone. My biggest complaint with this credit is they limit the amount of light trespass to 0.01fc at 10'-15' past the property line. This is measured at eye level or 5' above grade. If anyone has ever done a lot of site lighting calcs you know how far 0.01fc can be from the light source. For those who don't do lighting calcs, the full moon is about 0.03fc.
 
Mr. Bill, first I would really like to thank you for the wealth of information here - some of which I find frightening... (No fault of yours... ;) )

But as a part of a "Small Shop" - it looks like the more you know the better off you are. As otherwise any contract permitted under these guidelines could represent a considerable risk to the uninformed, or under educated. Likewise, I can see it skewing the competion to the one not waving the Red Flag and adding doubt to the client base - Which would only seem like Crying Wolf at first, or if the fears did not materialize. In my case - knowing a "Wolf" even exists is a key to survival.

I just got done describing my typical situation as a 'Small EC' with 'Small GC's' in the local Resi, Comm, Remodel and TI market, on another forum about this same topic.

~you see, there lays one of my problems locally. Architects and Designers who have no interest in codes or standards! EE's who are only paid to do load calc's - stamp the plans - nothing more! And a Planning Dept. that often fails to spot mandatory items on plan check on a consistent or reliable basis.

As well as Customers and GC's who are unwilling or educated enough to hire an outside consultant - or realize that they should. Then I get caught in the middle to force feed them basic requirements in order to comply with just the basics that will enable me to pass inspection for the permit that I have to pull. As the local Inspector in the field is the one with the "No fly Zone" on the matter, but will often not look for the required items (As most of the items finish devices and fixtures) until "Finish". And sometimes that can be a very expensive 'three steps back' from the previous 'two forward'.

So what I and most every other EC does locally is look like the 'bad guy' right up front, as soon as the contract is signed. Throw the plans back to whom ever, 'You need more of this, or that, and if you do that you need one of these...' As most are unwilling to educate themselves - I end up doing it, and by the time you get them used to one code cycle, it is on to the next. I really can not tell you how often I get plans where Title-24 part 6 was even considered! And unless you have $500 shoes, and a flamboyant personality it is really hard to get paid for all the design work that you end up having to do for free to keep the progress on the job. (Even jobs with Lighting Designers I often have throw the plans back, and explain what they missed...)

So with this LEED's thing... It sounds like there will need to be some sort of additional third party to tell you what your recycling bin and vagaries of Building, Plumbing, HVAC and Electrical options are? What happens when your client base is unwilling to forebear this additional, expensive and seemingly unnecessary individual?
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Ref:

Basically, all of this means is that every contractor operating in my market had better keep a keen eye on what our Building Dept. and local Government adopts - as being caught unaware could be very risky with such drastic changes.

Once again - thank you for educating me on some of this!
 
Happy I can help. Most of what I wrote came from 90.1. I just regurgitated it. It also helps that plan review and building inspectors around here ask for a majority of this. Learning curve goes up after being burned a couple times. Also, when things get slow in the office I research whatever I can on websites or in Code books.

I'm sorry to hear that you're forced into doing the design work for the designers and without compensation. Are you able to add you design hours into your change order pricing?

Did you ever think about changing to the dark side and do electrical design?
 
cowboyjwc said:
Here in CA if you just met the Title 24 standards you would have a very energy efficient building.
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Energy efficiency and the USGBC "program" are/can be night/day. USGBC goes into reuse of materials, recycling, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It's heaps of extra work/expense, but it can be done. It's a start.

All that from a guy that recreates using fossil fuels. When they make a motocross bike that runs on used gypboard, let me know.
 
Mr. Bill said:
Did you ever think about changing to the dark side and do electrical design?
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Well at some point I need to put these tools away for my better health... I'm almost 1/2 tempted to look into getting certified in this stuff. :grin:
 
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