LEGALLY can you ignore NEC code violations when installing electrical next to a violation

R

Rjryan

Senior Member
Location
Trophy Club, Texas
Occupation
Master Electrician
My wife ask me to install some additional circuits for friends.
The problem arises from NEC code violations on their pool installation.
Just off the top of my head, pool pumps not on GFCI and no maintenance disconnects for pool equipment.
The installation would involve panel work and accessing wiring through pool junction box.
I brought up no GFCI on the pool pumps to the friends before and they consulted their pool inspector, who said it was not necessary.
Challenged them on the issue, they went with the "pool inspector".
What is my liability in this situation?
 
Rjryan said:
My wife ask me to install some additional circuits for friends.
The problem arises from NEC code violations on their pool installation.
Just off the top of my head, pool pumps not on GFCI and no maintenance disconnects for pool equipment.
The installation would involve panel work and accessing wiring through pool junction box.
I brought up no GFCI on the pool pumps to the friends before and they consulted their pool inspector, who said it was not necessary.
Challenged them on the issue, they went with the "pool inspector".
What is my liability in this situation?
Click to expand...
I would avoid the job. Last guy/gal on the job is usually the first to be contacted when there’s an issue.
 
When was the pool built? Is the pump hard wired? I don't believe hard wired pumps required GFCI protection until about the 2011 code. Are the circuit breakers for the pump and other pool equipment within sight of that equipment? Not sure how many pool maintenance/repair places know about the requirement to bring GFCI up to current code when a pool motor is replaced.

If it turns out things are OK when they were built, the other posters still have a valid point that you were the last to touch it so the electrocuted kid is now your fault.
 
Thank you for replying, I wanted to please my wife and help friends, but what you are saying, I was afraid of what might happen.
Thanks for the advice.
 
I suggest a written note, in very gentle and friendly terms, stating why you have to decline the project. Cite (no need to actually quote) the code articles that the existing installation violates, state that you sincerely believe it already represents a safety hazard, state that if you did work on the system without fixing the problem you would feel responsible for any future injuries, and you don't want to have to live with that fear. Mention that you are not looking for additional profit on this job, but rather that you recommend hiring another electrician.
 
IMHO since the pool has existing violations and the OPs work apparently would involve the pool I would stay away from it.

If they hired, you to do work in the kitchen for instance and you noticed pool violations that would probably be a different story
 
ggunn said:
As a PE, I am bound by the PE rules which are codified by state law to report anything I see on a job which is a hazard to human life.
Click to expand...
A local jurisdiction here USED to have an rule that they only inspected what they were called to inspect.
This rule was an idea to try and raise the inspection compliance level:
The notion was that many people were fearful that if they got a permit and called for an inspector, their prior unpermitted work (addition, ADU, water heater, whatever) would be found.

For better or worse the policy has now changed, and the AHJ inspectors have the option (not obligation) to report.
 
The problem with the AHJ's current policy is it's inherently discriminatory to make the reporting obligation discretionary. There's no way the rule can be applied impartially.
 
I don't know about other locations but in MA you are only responsible for your own work. If the inspector sees other violations nothing to do with the electrician on site, he is not supposed to hold up your inspection because of other violations. The inspector is supposed to issue a notification to the HO about the violations.

Only one time I had a problem with this.

I installed a disconnect on the wall for a HVAC ahu unit indoors and wired the AHU. I checked with the HVAC contractor about the switch location, and he told me it would be fine.

When I met the inspector there a few weeks later we walked into the building and he was looking up in the bar joists, we were not near my work yet.

There was an SE cable run through the bar joists.

The inspector (old timer) said, "look at that cable, that was supposed to be temporary and they are still using it. They guy that did that is dead now and he promised me he would take care of that 10 years ago"

Needless to say that put him in a bad mood.

On top of that my job flunked.

The HVAC guy ran his ductwork right in front of my disconnect
 
Eddie702 said:
Needless to say that put him in a bad mood.. my job flunked.
Click to expand...
Dead guys will now keep their promise first.
Eddie702 said:
The HVAC guy ran his ductwork right in front of my disconnect
Click to expand...
And they install HVAC condensers so nameplate faces the wall.

Only way to read it is with a mirror, and service panel access requires right angles tools to get between wall.
 
charlie b said:
I suggest a written note, in very gentle and friendly terms, stating why you have to decline the project. Cite (no need to actually quote) the code articles that the existing installation violates, state that you sincerely believe it already represents a safety hazard, state that if you did work on the system without fixing the problem you would feel responsible for any future injuries, and you don't want to have to live with that fear. Mention that you are not looking for additional profit on this job, but rather that you recommend hiring another electrician.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your suggestion.
It's probably the best way to handle this situation.
 
suemarkp said:
When was the pool built? Is the pump hard wired? I don't believe hard wired pumps required GFCI protection until about the 2011 code. Are the circuit breakers for the pump and other pool equipment within sight of that equipment? Not sure how many pool maintenance/repair places know about the requirement to bring GFCI up to current code when a pool motor is replaced.

If it turns out things are OK when they were built, the other posters still have a valid point that you were the last to touch it so the electrocuted kid is now your fault.
Click to expand...
Yep. Up until the 2011 Code, the GFCI requirement only said it was for RECEPTACLES, so hard wired pumps did not require GFCI. In 2011 they changed the wording to;
Outlets supplying pool pump motors connected to single-phase, 120 volt through 240 volt branch circuits, rated 15 or 20 amperes, whether by receptacle or by
direct connection, shall be provided with ground-fault circuitinterrupter protection for personnel.
Click to expand...
 
Jraef said:
Yep. Up until the 2011 Code, the GFCI requirement only said it was for RECEPTACLES, so hard wired pumps did not require GFCI. In 2011 they changed the wording to;
Click to expand...
And people have been moaning and miserable ever since. The change did not save the kid's life, would not have saved the kid's life.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top